I am toying around and trying to get some experience and knowledge. I am using acid peroxide solution for my tests. I have a copper bar that I smelted a while back that i put in it and some small balls of wire from some coils that i recovered. The solution has turned dark green and i do have a bubbler in it. The mix i used was 600ml of muriatic acid and 200ml of peroxide. I have tried to get the copper to drop with putting a steel bar in it I got from scrap at work. it had very little on it. So i got a black steel pipe and tried the same thing. Very little to none on the pipe. I thought about the reactivity series of metals so i started putting small pieces of aluminum foil in it and kept track of the temp so it did not boil over. Am i doing something wrong here or just completely off track. Any help is appreciated due to me just learning how to do this. Thanks
Learning by experimentation and having trouble
- Thread starter tgrantjr
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When you dissolved copper into the solution you made copper II chloride.
Copper II chloride with air will itself dissolve more copper and iron into solution.
So you can have both metals in solution, you can have both of these metals in solution hungry for more copper or iron...
Depending on the oxidation state of the metals, free acid in solution, and active oxidizer like air, will also depend on how the solution reacts to metals, as well as the concentration and temperature...
Say, we first put a little copper in some HCl, not much happens (copper is above hydrogen in the reactivity series), we will need an oxidizer to getting the electron from copper to move, we can use air, or jump up the oxygen content with a splash of H2O2, now copper gives up its electrons to the acid, forming a solution of copper II chloride salt dissolved in water, now this solution will itself attack copper (or iron) and in doing so becomes a copper I Chloride solution, if iron is involved it can be of a ferric state in solution (which will also attack copper or iron or a ferrous state in solution...
Iron will displace copper from solution first converting copper II chloride to a copper I chloride, and then eventually copper I chloride in solution into a copper metal powder.
Aluminum will also displace most of the metals (copper as metal and iron as hydroxides, as the aluminum, also robs the solution of its hydrogen or its acidic nature and makes a gooey mess, difficult to dry or treat properly for waste disposal...
These metals (copper and iron) can have several different oxidation states in solution...
You need to do some more study to understand what is going on in solution, your experiments will give you a better understanding after you gain more education on the subject.
At this point you have not gained much knowledge from dissolving metals in acid, Now go back and study more about ferric and ferrous chloride, cupric, and cuprous chloride, the reaction series of metals...
Then redo your experiments with some knowledge and a better understanding of what to expect and when and why...
Copper II chloride with air will itself dissolve more copper and iron into solution.
So you can have both metals in solution, you can have both of these metals in solution hungry for more copper or iron...
Depending on the oxidation state of the metals, free acid in solution, and active oxidizer like air, will also depend on how the solution reacts to metals, as well as the concentration and temperature...
Say, we first put a little copper in some HCl, not much happens (copper is above hydrogen in the reactivity series), we will need an oxidizer to getting the electron from copper to move, we can use air, or jump up the oxygen content with a splash of H2O2, now copper gives up its electrons to the acid, forming a solution of copper II chloride salt dissolved in water, now this solution will itself attack copper (or iron) and in doing so becomes a copper I Chloride solution, if iron is involved it can be of a ferric state in solution (which will also attack copper or iron or a ferrous state in solution...
Iron will displace copper from solution first converting copper II chloride to a copper I chloride, and then eventually copper I chloride in solution into a copper metal powder.
Aluminum will also displace most of the metals (copper as metal and iron as hydroxides, as the aluminum, also robs the solution of its hydrogen or its acidic nature and makes a gooey mess, difficult to dry or treat properly for waste disposal...
These metals (copper and iron) can have several different oxidation states in solution...
You need to do some more study to understand what is going on in solution, your experiments will give you a better understanding after you gain more education on the subject.
At this point you have not gained much knowledge from dissolving metals in acid, Now go back and study more about ferric and ferrous chloride, cupric, and cuprous chloride, the reaction series of metals...
Then redo your experiments with some knowledge and a better understanding of what to expect and when and why...
May I ask? How, then, can we treat waste from Copper Chloride process? Seems the primary ‘stock pot’ process of dropping values with copper, then drop copper with iron, adjust pH to drop iron and neutralize pH of waste water could not be successful. How would you advise?
Have you read the thread "dealing with waste"?
Martijn
Well-known member
Which waste are you referring to?
You answered your own question.
Copper (II) Chloride
When suspending a copper bar, am I not simply creating more copper chloride? When suspending iron, at what point will iron stop going into solution?
Read the post by Frugalrefiner “when in doubt cement it out”. That will get you a better understanding of the copper use part of your question. The “dealing with waste” post will lead you through the process. If needed read both several times. But… copper is only needed to remove any potential metals of value, such as pgm’s. The iron will take out primarily the copper, which could be reused in other processes. Balancing the Ph at times will bring much of the process into balance. The final product will be mainly H2O. Study of the suggested posts will be a lot more clear than I have been here.
Thank you! I’m still in the studying phase and overthink often.
Martijn
Well-known member
Yes, that's why it is not waste. Store it for future use.
Once you have too much, you can cement the copper out with iron. Then follow normal waste steps. The precious metals should all be filtered out anyway.
There could theoretically be (if there was any to start with) palladium in solution. A stannous test on a diluted drop can indicate that.
You could test with something else, but that creates nasty toxic salts that stick to everything.
Again, only if there was any Pd to start with.
An iron bar will keep dissolving because of the same mechanism, only now with iron chloride. Take the iron out when all the copper is cemented out. The solution will now be a pale, but darker green in stead of emerald green.
Martijn
Well-known member
When cementing AP, I've had some pretty hard copper layers on it. You can tap it off to expose more iron until nothing cements out anymore.
