After a prior nitric bath, what left metals does the AR not dissolve?

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Uciocciu

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Messages
53
Hi guys,
I need you in order to improve my (weak) knowledges, dealing with chemicals and metals.

Two days ago, I decided to process small industrial relays. I was looking for gold, silver and palladium. Unfortunately, I did not ask the guy who gave them to me where they came from.

After a bath of nitric to get rid of base metals, I decanted and put some AR.
After the reaction, there was some pieces of metal left.
I was a bit surprised, so here is my two questions:
1° after a nitric bath, what left metals does the AR not dissolve?
2° In this precise case, do you think there could be some precious metals left, for instance PGM ?

Thank you in advance,

Olivier
 
Two days ago, I decided to process small industrial relays. I was looking for gold, silver, and palladium.

After a bath of nitric acid to get rid of base metals, I decanted and put some AR.
After the reaction, there were some pieces of metal left.


I was a bit surprised, so here are my questions:

after a nitric bath, what left metals does the water regale not dissolve?


Any metals that the nitric could not attack, or any metal that would passivate in the acid, or any metal that had consumed the free nitric in solution.

Iron, chromium, aluminum, stainless steel, cobalt, nickel, titanium, can be resistant or passivate in nitric acid.
concentrated nitric and dilute nitric act differently on metals, a metal may dissolve in dilute nitric, but will not dissolve in concentrated nitric acid, but would build an oxidized layer that protects the metal from further corrosion...

Contact points (primarily) silver will not dissolve in aqua regia.

Do you think there could be
some precious metals left, for instance, PGM?


Not much telling without testing.


Thank goodness you are still ok.
What parts of the relay or contacts did you put in to acids?
What are you doing with the toxic waste?
You will not become knowledgeable in dealing with chemical reactions of metals if you destroy your health.
You will not learn by throwing metals into acid and scratching your head wondering what is happening.
 
To expand on what butcher wisely advised I will tell you if there was silver and palladium present they should now be in your nitric solution, any gold should be in your AR solution but other PGMs are not readily dissolved even in hot AR so they could be amongst the remains along with the metals butcher specified.
Be aware that PGMs in solution are highly toxic and need proper handling and ful, understanding of the risks involved.
 
@butcher
@nickvc

Thank you for your responses.
Dealing with safety, you are perfectly right.
I should have given more precisions.

When I processed the relays, I wore a gas mask, gloves, glasses and a special blouse. My fume hood was running.
I had recovered silver and gold before, but It was the first time I tried to recover palladium ( and I did it !).
My solution was 50% nitric, 50% distilled water. At the end of the reaction, I mmediately noticed there was some metals left, and it seemed right to me ( gold).I siphoned the solution, only those metals remained in the beaker. I first recovered Pd with DMG, then silver with table salt. I have put some AR on the residual metal , and then filtered, there was still this metal. I was curious about it, so I tried again to dilute it into AR. But nothing happened.Then I wrote my message.

Dealing with waste management, here is my methdology: first of all, I cement precious metals in my stockpot with copper, then transfer the solution to waste bucket. I cement copper with iron pieces, then I siphon the solution, put sodium hydroxide Ph 9, I filter and dispose of the solids. The remaining caustic solution is treated thanks to my ph decreaser ( up to ph 6), then disposed off.I bring the solids and the solution to the waste management public company, given there is a special place for this kind or residues.

I m not a specialist, I am a beginner, and I appreciate yours advices.

Thank you again for your responses,
Olivier
 
Gold plated silver is also resistant to nitric acid. Then in the aqua regia it dissolves the gold and leaves a passivated piece of silver.

If you think that is what you have, flatten it out with a hammer so the acid can get to it and then test it with nitric again.

The silver chloride can be broken up by mechanical, thermal or chemical methods. There are several ways it can be done.

Göran
 
Olivier,
I must appologize that I was Apprehensive in my response to your question, I did not know for sure what you were doing besides putting relays in acids, I did not know your skill levels or the understanding of safety...

It sounds from your second post that you have done your homework, and have been working safely, and have a fair understanding of the dangers and the reactions involved...

Contact points are made so that they do not corrode or are pitted or burned, and have good chemical resistance as well as mechanical properties, these metals must be able to transfer electrons and the current across a gap of two metals that come into contact with each other, the point wipe each other during closing to wipe away oxidation, they also sometimes handle very low currents and fast data where a good contact becomes important as any oxidation or pitting on the surface would cause resistance and loss of data in the fast-rising 5-volts and ground signals try to get through the resistance, or they may be required to handle very high currents that will arc across the closing and opening gaps of the contacts and not get burned or pitted...

So basically contact points will also be fairly resistant to our acids...
Some of the metal compositions involved can be difficult to dissolve in the acids, tungsten in silver may make it hard to dissolve all of the silver in nitric, gold or the platinum group metals make dissolving all of the metal in nitric acid...


Nitric acid
Being a powerful oxidizing agent, nitric acid reacts violently with many non-metallic compounds, and the reactions may be explosive.

Depending on the acid concentration, temperature and the reducing agent involved, the end products can be variable. Reaction takes place with all metals except the noble metals series and certain alloys.


Although chromium (Cr), iron (Fe), and aluminum (Al) readily dissolve in dilute nitric acid, the concentrated acid forms a metal-oxide layer that protects the bulk of the metal from further oxidation. The formation of this protective layer is called passivization.


http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16869&p=170601&hilit=Group1%3A+Ag+Mo%2C+Ag+Cu#p170601

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=20969&p=215987&hilit=Group1%3A+Ag+Mo%2C+Ag+Cu#p215987

Sorry I cannot be much of a help, and that I was apprehensive in my original response.
 
g_axelsson said:
Gold plated silver is also resistant to nitric acid. Then in the aqua regia it dissolves the gold and leaves a passivated piece of silver.

If you think that is what you have, flatten it out with a hammer so the acid can get to it and then test it with nitric again.

The silver chloride can be broken up by mechanical, thermal or chemical methods. There are several ways it can be done.

Göran
I have experience the gold plated silver. It was just as you described. At first I felt like a dog chasing my tail.

I set it aside and finally came across the fix somewhere here on the forum. (I wish I could give proper credit but I don't recall the specific thread.

I wound up cutting the material into smaller pieces and the silver went I to solution and the gold flakes filtered out then went to AR.

The answers are definitely here on the Forum.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 
@Butcher
Do not worry, you do not have to apologize.
Your first post was actually that of a real comrade, who feels that the person is not very qualified, and who seeks to protect it.
It was a great post!
it was a post in the mind of GRF.

I read your answer, as well as that of Goran. Your explanation on the points of contact and the acids is precise and rich. I'll have to work a little to deepen and fully understand what you have written. Then, I will try to find out more about the contacts I have been dealing with, and I will come back to share those informations.

Have a great day.
Olivier
 
Electrical Contacts and points

If the concentration of the nitric is high, it can take longer to dissolve silver, when 68% nitric is diluted 50/50 with water it will react faster.
Some metals can be difficult or passivate in nitric acid.
Note contacts and points can have some dangerous metals to work with; melting can make for some very dangerous gases.
Electrical contacts and points can be made from many different silver/metal compositions, there are many metals that can be used.
Base metals, as well as valuable metals, even Gold and the platinum group metals, can be plated or in the alloys.
Dangerous metals can also be involved in the compositions of these alloys...
Relay contact point's, switches, circuit breakers and the like, will usually contain other metals, some of higher value than just the silver.
Group1: Ag-Mo, Ag-Cu, Ag-Cd, Ag-Fe, Ag-Ni, Ag-Wc, Ag-C
Group2: Ag-Cu-Ni, Ag-Cd-Ni, Ag-Ni-Mg, Ag-Fe-Cu, Ag-CdO
Group3: Ag-Au, Ag-Pt, Ag-Pd
Group4: Cu-W, Cu-WC
Normally silver is the majority Contacts and points
of alloy compositions, some examples percents by weight:
Ag 72 - Cu 7.5
Ag 75 - Cu 24.5-Ni 0.5
Ag 97.5 - CdO 2.5
Ag 95 - CdO 5
Ag 90 - CdO 10
Ag 86.7 - CdO 13
Ag 85 - CdO 15
Ag 77 - Cd-O 22.6 - Ni 0.4
Ag 86.8 - Cd-O 5.5 - Ni 0.2 - Cu 7.5
Ag 95 - Ni 0.5
Ag 90 - Ni 10
Ag 85 - Ni 15
Ag 70 - Ni 30
Ag 60 - Ni 40
Ag 40 - Ni 60
Ag 99.75 - C 0.25
Ag 99.5 - C 0.5
Ag 99 - C 1.0
Ag 90 - C 10
Ag 88 - C 2.0 - Ni 10
Ag 90 - Fe 10
Fe 50 - Cu 25 - Ag 25
Ag 99.34 -MgO 0.41 - Ni 0.25
Ag 99.55 - Mg-O 0.25 - Ni 0.20
Ag 97 - Pt 3.0
Ag 90 - Pd 10
Ag 97 - Pd 3
Ag 99 - Pd 1
Ag90 - Au 10
Ag-Cu-Cd-Au
Some of the tungsten compositions:
Ag 27.5 - W 72.5
Ag 35 - W 65
Ag 49 - W 51
Ag 50 - W 50
Ag 46 W 53 - C 1.0
Ag 48 - W 51.75 - C 0.25
Ag 90 - W 10
Ag 65 - WC 35
Ag 50 - WC 50
Ag 40 - WC 60
Ag 40 - Mo 60
Ag 50 - Mo 50

Just a few of the gold or PGM types:
Pt-Rh 10
Pt-Ir 10
Pd-Ag 40
Au 99.99
Au-Ni 8
Au-Ag 15 Ni 10

There are spring materials made from copper, stainless steel, beryllium, bronze, and Kovar.
We can also have bi-metal alloys which deform under heat or current...

Bus bars can be made from other metals like copper or brass, stainless steels or other iron compounds...
Brazing alloys can have barium, cadmium, phosphates, chromium, lithium, and well as others...

Gold flashed silver, gold overlay base metals, silver nickel, silver cadmium oxide, silver tin indium, silver copper nickel, gold silver nickel, gold silver nickel palladium tungsten.


Some of the metals to watch for, Au, Pt, Pd, Rh, Ir, In, Os, Ag, Ni, Cu, Fe, Co, Cd, Mo, Sn, Pb, A, Hg, Mg, W, C, Zn, and oxides of several of these metals.

Silver is usually predominant.
if contacts were Russian, I would surely check for platinum group metals.




Tungsten is very resistive to acids, silver in HCl passivates, the high oxidizer can help to react with the tungsten, and the silver crust can be broken loose with vigorous stirring and knocking it around with a glass stir rod, if this is tungsten and silver it will not be fast or easy.
Tungsten (W) usually used in high current type, (waffle back), high melting point 3380 deg C, this can make melting difficult, not easily dissolved, hot HCl with concentrated H2O2 will attack.

Tungsten silver contacts, in a (50%: 50%) solution of 70% HNO3: H2O, heated can dissolve the silver out, leaving a porous shell of tungsten, that can be broken or crushed, when silver is removed,
The metals or alloys and combinations of metals, used are usually dependent on the purpose and use of the contact points (relay, breaker, switch, etcetera), the voltage, current, environments, inductance or capacitance in circuit, Arcing, welding, oxidation, pitting, inrush current, contact bouncing, whether AC or DC application...

Well, let's just say there are many factors that come into play when a contact point is used in electronics or electrical applications, and these little buttons of metals are in almost all electronic and electrical devices.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/ ... 58&t=16364

Sometimes you can get datasheets for specifications with a search, of the relay or other switching devices there are some good posts listing metal used in switch's and breakers, allot of these contain mostly silver, I can not tell you what the Westinghouse or other brands of breaker’s, or switch points you have contains, but my guess is mostly silver, and that is the way I feel you should purchase them as silver, and also these can be a cost you in time and reagents so figure that also. Switches can contain gold or gold plating, but that is usually for low current and high reliability in switching like for digital electronics, large current devices will usually have tungsten.



Well, let's just say there are many factors that come into play when a contact point is used in electronics or electrical applications, and these little buttons of metals are in almost all electronic and electrical devices.

Melting contacts can produce deadly fumes cadmium and zinc as well as other volatile metal toxic fumes and floating oxidized particles of the metals easily breathed into the lungs.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q ... s_occt=any

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16869&p=170601&hilit=Group1%3A+Ag+Mo%2C+Ag+Cu#p170601
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=20969&p=215987&hilit=Group1%3A+Ag+Mo%2C+Ag+Cu#p215987
 
I remember buying tractor points for magnetos that were an alloy of the PGM.
Forklift contact points with more than an ounce of silver...

Here is some more on electrical contact point and alloys.



ALLOY-NOMINAL COMPOSITION
C102-69Au, 25Ag, 6Pt
C103-35Pd, 30Ag, 14Cu, 10Au, 10Pt, 1Zn
C105-44Pd, 38Ag, 16Cu, 1Pt, 1Ni
C106-72Ag, 28Cu
C109-60Pd, 40Ag
C110-75Au, 25Ag
C117-Ag, Mg, Ni
C118-90Ag, 10Cu
------------------------

60 Pd, 40 Pt
80 Ag, 20 Cadmium-oxide
90 Pd, 10 Ir
90 Ag, 10 Ni
92 Ag, 8 Sn


https://repository.library.northeastern.edu/files/neu:329929/fulltext.pdf
https://www.electrical-contacts-wiki.com/index.php/Contact_Materials_for_Electrical_Engineering
https://www.electrical-contacts-wiki.com/index.php?title=Silver_Based_Materials
https://www.electrical-contacts-wiki.com/index.php?title=Gold_Based_Materials
https://www.electrical-contacts-wiki.com/index.php?title=Platinum_Metal_Based_Materials
https://www.electrical-contacts-wiki.com/index.php?title=Tungsten_and_Molybdenum_Based_Materials
https://www.electrical-contacts-wiki.com/index.php?title=Special_Contact_Materials_(VAKURIT)_for_Vacuum_Switches

http://copperalliance.org.uk/uploads/2018/02/tn-23-copper-in-electrical-contacts-pdf.pdf
http://www.pepbrainin.com/technical-resources/electrical-contact-materials/
https://books.google.com/books?id=RzMOiOEQ-oMC&pg=PA400&lpg=PA400&dq=electrical+contact+metal+alloys&source=bl&ots=wOoa7jaHNF&sig=ACfU3U0rhmL5x1TE_BqEzVWC1ETN6sh0lw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4vrbQm9HkAhVfFjQIHdxxDlQ4KBDoATACegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=electrical%20contact%20metal%20alloys&f=false
 
One problem with these contacts points is the toxic fumes if melted, making the dissolution of the whole lot difficult, because of the high PGM or high alloys of some of the points which may be involved which are more resistant to nitric or which can passivate from high silver in a chloride leach...

Some metals and alloys will resist both acids...

Melting is not advised because of the dangers involved.
Trouble is it is extremely difficult to melt the lot safely and pour shot, to mix the high silver content (lowing the high PGM content of individual points) similar to quartering gold...

You can dissolve most of the lot without melting, some small pieces or a very small portion of the lot may survive, the acids, I just saved them for processing as possible values, in the stockpot, or where I may be able to melt them (more safely) with the next batch of silver to be processed...

Waffle back tungsten type High current types of contact points I would separate from the other types and process them separately they have problems of their own...
 
@butcher

I apologize for the delay, I was very busy with my job.

You gave us a real lesson on contacts.

You are obviously a great specialist, and I thank you for sharing this mass of knowledge with us.

I copied all this in a document that I called "Contacts", which I will enrich little by little.

I will allow myself to question you on certain points.

Thanks again Butcher,

Olivier
 
@Goran
@Butcher

Hi guys,
I realized I forgot to give you the results of Goran suggestion.

A few weeks ago, dealing with this thread, Goran wrote "Gold plated silver is also resistant to nitric acid. Then in the aqua regia it dissolves the gold and leaves a passivated piece of silver.

If you think that is what you have, flatten it out with a hammer so the acid can get to it and then test it with nitric again.


He was perfectly right.
I flatted the residues out with a hammer, and tested it with nitric, and all the residues were dissolved !

Thanks again to both of you !

Olivier
 
Thanks for sharing the result. Too many threads just ends with a question on how it turned out in the end.

I'm happy that I could help you. :D

Göran
 
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