How to assay sweeps

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MarcoP

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Jan 22, 2014
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Sicily Island
Hi all, my primary intent is to end up dealing with jewelers but a question I always have to answer "no" is "do you assay". That seems to put an end to my proposals. Where do I find C. M. Hoke's style instructions? How and where do you suggest me to start learning?

Thanks in advance
Marco
 
This is the thread. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4789&hilit=assay+lab
That thread should be placed in the library section..
 
I feel an idiot, I stopped reading the same topic just before posting this one. I thought it was only about the setup of a lab and not the procedures ... I should have known better.

Thank you!
Marco

Edit: I was eager of the how to procedure and put that topic on hold...
 
Assaying precious metals is a whole, large, topic by itself. Really depends upon the material.

For karat gold, proof corrected fire assay. For PGMs, usually the liquids from the gold parting are worked up for Pt/Pd. If Rh/Ir/Ru is present, it contaminates the gold in the parting process.
 
You have already got some good advice in the link provided by Palladium

You might also want to check out the book "Fire Assay Home Study Course" put out by action mining - they have other good books on mining, smelting, refining, assay, etc. as well

http://www.actionmining.com/

Kurt
 
Another book, don't know if it's good or bad but at least it's free.
The Sampling and Assay of the Precious Metals by Ernest Alfred Smith, 1913
https://archive.org/details/samplingandassa00smitgoog

Göran
 
But for a small guy, just setting up to buy jewelry related karat scrap and sweeps classic fire assay is the way to go and we can use this thread to give you your own private course if you so desire. There are gravimetric methods for the 4 primary metals which can serve your needs well.

Why don't you describe exactly what you are looking to assay and what metals you need to pay on, then we can hash out all of the equipment you need and why as well as suggest the methodology. Maybe it won't be C. M. Hoke style it will be GRF style, and represent multiple techniques from different members.

We're due for another meat and potatoes type thread!
 
To begin with it seems all jewelers asking for assays are willing to let me work with their floor sweeps so I'm sure I'll have to learn this before anything else. Later on I'll ask more info about Lou's post :)

In the last few days, this is why the late reply, I've read about assays, downloaded and looked (not read) them but they all mainly talk about karat and ores. I wanted to read just to get an idea and get familiar with the new terminology.

An analytical scale 0.0001gr was a cold shower but for when I'll be ready I'm sure I'll find a used one.

4metals, in the main assay thread you mention sweeps and if anyone was interested you would post the related process, years later you find someone interested :)
On my readings I've also noticed an important factor, honoring the assay. How does that work.

Marco
 
On my readings I've also learned that refiners rarely returns all PMs contained and to me, specially now, will be very hard to return PGMs. I would like to be able to assay and return gold and silver and this will put me head of others returning only gold on karat and silver on sterling. With time I would like to return PGMs too.

Honoring, if the assay turn to be 1% gold but when processing the main batch I get less. How is this handled.

Marco
 
The process for jewelers sweeps assays is usually done on larger lots, although the lot size doesn't matter, small lots which will be processed in Aqua Regia are generally settled on out-turn. So a fire assay isn't even done. Larger lots are generally fire assayed and then accumulated and shipped to a smelter because their rates are quite appealing if your quantities justify.

When you acid refine sweeps, two things will happen. One, you will not recover the silver, it remains in with the undissolved as silver chloride. And two, you will leave behind some of the gold. I do work for a good number of refiners who process "residues" from smaller refiners who do process in acid. Their assays are usually high in silver and average 1/4 of 1% gold. So it seems that the small guys acid refining are not getting all of the gold either. I am quite sure that some of the more careful acid sweeps refiners get more of the gold (like the guys who learned here!) and there are some who leave more behind in the residues. But on average there is 1/4 of 1% remaining after refining. The customer does not get paid for this because the acid refiner didn't recover it but the acid refiner gets paid for it when he accumulates enough residues to send out.

So some would ask, if I have to send it out anyway to get paid for everything why don't I fire assay it and accumulate it and get paid for it all without bothering with the acid refining? The answer, at least in the USA where the jewelry manufacturing has diminished significantly, is it will take so long to accumulate enough sweeps to ship out that you may lose all of your profits before you ship. (Of course you may make a lot of extra money too, depending on how the prices are moving but in recent years the bears have been in charge and the price has been falling. Where are the bulls when we need them?)

So refining for small lots, say incoming 20 pounds or less, acid refining is the method most used. After incineration, that 20 pounds will be about half the weight, or 10 pounds to put up in acid.

So the question becomes how many pounds will you be getting for processing? If it is a small quantity, you will pay on out-turn and will not be running a fire assay. But if your answer to the jeweler requires you say YES! with a big smile, we can go over the procedures here and you can learn and practice the techniques, and you will be capable of assaying the material. It just isn't needed to process in acid.

Honoring, if the assay turn to be 1% gold but when processing the main batch I get less. How is this handled.

Wow, I actually answered the question before I posted this response. The answer comes down to what we have been saying about refiners all along. To get and keep your customers your clients need to trust you. You will be picking up material that is un-incinerated from a jeweler The material cannot in any way be sampled in a way that guarantees it is homogeneous. So you have to incinerate it, crush and sift it and sample it before the customer even gets the assay. Generally a refiner has your material a few days before you get the results from the assay.

So if you have the material for a few days what are you supposed to do? Process and sample it, report it to the customer, and have them tell you it is too low give it back. (I'm from New York, that happens!)

If you incinerated, screened and processed in acid in the same few days, you will know the out turn, then you can do the math and tell them the percentage yield per pound, based on what you recovered, and you have honored your assay and don't have to wait for the gold.
 
I've also learned that refiners rarely returns all PMs contained

Typically a refiner has a minimum payable assay figure for PGM's and a minimum deduction. So if your assay on Platinum is below their minimum payable figure, they get to keep it. Also if your minimum assay is above the minimum payable but doesn't meet the minimum deduction, they still get to keep it.

PGM's are more difficult to recover in small lots so the minimums actually make sense from a business perspective. When the PGM's are low enough a refiner knows it's not payable and recovers the metals in bulk by cementation or resin after the gold is out, so there is little additional labor. If that labor and handling had to be applied to individual jobs the labor increases significantly. The only people who don't understand this happen to be the people who are losing their metal!
 
Agree with everything 4metals states.

What I would do differently.

I would receive material on a 30 day payout contract, that gives me plenty of time to assay and process the material (yes, I did say assay). After incineration, use a magnet to remove magnetics. Smelt balance with some added copper as a collector. Assay for gold, don't bother with silver and PGM's as they will be too low for payout (unless customer asks for Ag, sometimes they do).

To avoid losing money if customer requests material returned after assay, your contract will have fees for smelting and assay.

It is necessary to be extremely honest and fair with all your customers so that they always trust you. Thirty days may seem a long time for settlement, but it is necessary to properly process sweeps for best recovery.
 
Westerngs said:
Smelt balance with some added copper as a collector ... To avoid losing money if customer requests material returned after assay, your contract will have fees for smelting and assay.
Smelt as with cupellation or flux in a silicon carbide crucibles? Good to know about that.

As a general rule, how much floor sweeps should I ask for assay, 50gr? Should I split those 50gr in two batches to assay independently?

If sweeps can be acid assayed that means I only need a 0,1mg analytical scale?

Marco
 
4metals said:
So the question becomes how many pounds will you be getting for processing? If it is a small quantity, you will pay on out-turn and will not be running a fire assay. But if your answer to the jeweler requires you say YES! with a big smile, we can go over the procedures here and you can learn and practice the techniques, and you will be capable of assaying the material. It just isn't needed to process in acid.
I reckon and hope about 20 pounds, 5 more, 5 less.
 
To avoid losing money if customer requests material returned after assay, your contract will have fees for smelting and assay.

This is usually done on larger lots, there are per pound in fee's and assay fee's. Generally the customer producing 20-25 pounds of unburnt sweeps for processing is small enough that he wants to see his rate expressed as a single number, say 10% or whatever you deem reasonable. When you start adding on extra fee's, that is where some clients get turned off. The bigger guys expect it but the smaller guys like a simple number.

If you do as Westerngs say's, you are doing what larger refiners do and you then do have to address the issue of honoring the assay. In that case processing in acid can be an issue. (Remember you don't get the silver or about 1/4% of the gold.) With most sweeps, the assay will be very accurate and what is in there is what can be recovered.

Smelt balance with some added copper as a collector.

I am a little confused about what Westerngs means by this. Generally sweeps are incinerated, crushed and sifted. The oversize from the sifting process is processed by removing the magnetics and melting the balance with copper. I have generally referred to this as the oversize fraction of the sweeps.

Some refiners do smelt the entire lot with copper to produce a bar with all of the precious metals in it, which can be assayed. Then there is no need to put the powdered sweeps in acid but the gold must be recovered from the copper based bullion. The issue with melting sweeps, and I have done it, is fluxing. Different polishing compounds and buffs included in the sweeps require different flux combinations which can be difficult to figure out. If this is what you are going to do, first assay the powder after incineration and then assay the copper based bar to assure you have recovered all of the values.

I believe Westerngs was referring to melting the oversize and preparing the powder for shipping to a large smelter, if this is the case, 30 days would be a good thing. But you need enough business to collect enough powder to ship in economical processing quantities, which at a minimum is 1 full drum of prepared sweeps. I drum usually weighs 400 - 500 pounds after burn weight, so it started with about 1000 pounds incoming. I do not think this is the scale MarcoP is looking to process as you need to see this quantity every 2 weeks or so so you are not holding the metal too long, unless you are financially capable of hedging.
 
As a general rule, how much floor sweeps should I ask for assay, 50gr? Should I split those 50gr in two batches to assay independently?

You are making a very dangerous assumption if you think you can grab a small sample of unburnt sweeps and determine the value of the entire lot from that sample. Unburnt, uncrushed and unsifted sweeps are not homogeneous, your sample will not match the entire lot. The only way this is done is to take the entire lot, incinerate it, crush it, and sift it. Then you can blend the powders and take a representative sample.

The best sweeps assayer in the world will not get good numbers from a bad sample.

If you do as you suggest, take a small unprocessed sample for assay, you will run into issues honoring your assay.

As I write this I realize that Harold ran his refinery by processing sweeps in acid and he never fire assayed the material. I would value his insight here.
 
4metals, you say that no assay is done for small lots and those are paid on out-turn. In my case I'll have to deal with small lots of ~20 pounds of unburned sweeps but they all require an assay before I get the main batch. As far I can understand there is only one way around: let the customer understand that I need the entire lot for pretreatments if he wants a proper assay. If he doesn't like the assay he will receive the burned material, good for him. In the case he doesn't like the assay, a small guy, should just let him walk away? There are few reasons why I would do that.

So the assay seems to be a requirement around here.
Assay of incinerated, crushed and sifted material with magnetic removed from oversize. How can I assay for silver and gold?
If I had to acid-assay should I flux out base metals, melt into shots, use a nitric bath to go after silver and palladium, precipitate silver chloride and convert with diluted sulfuric and steel nails in a plastic tumbler, cement any palladium with copper bar. Then do aqua regia for gold and platinum? Or ... ?

For the main batch, if there is enough silver to make it worth while, should I flux out base metals, melt into shots with silver as collector, silver nitrate cell and then go after the gold from the anode sludge?
Or ... ? You mentioned that for small lots acids could be avoided.

Edit: I'd love to hear Harold voice on this too.

Marco
 
MarcoP said:
As a general rule, how much floor sweeps should I ask for assay, 50gr? Should I split those 50gr in two batches to assay independently?
4metals touched at this but I would like to emphasize it. As a general rule, never let a customer pick what to assay. That is something that you should do yourself so you are certain that the sample is a representative sample of the whole lot.
As a customer you should always be there to see how the sample is made to make sure the refiner doesn't try to pick a barren sample to lower the buying price.

If we stick to this rule it means that the customer is always watching when the refiner is taking their sample.

Of course there are exceptions like when a large batch of electronics with the same card or components so every card or component is virtually identical, but that's outside of this discussion.

Göran
 
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