XRF results

Gold Refining Forum

Help Support Gold Refining Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

WillieG

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2017
Messages
6
Location
Connecticut
Prior to yesterday I've never had more than a rub test. Can someone please explain to me why the prospective buyer who performed analysis insisted that I had only 22K? How much faith should I have in the results being that XRF is basically a surface reading.
Total weight is 50.3g. I'm needing to sell but also don't want to get ripped off.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2941.PNG
    IMG_2941.PNG
    810.4 KB · Views: 426
  • IMG_2942.JPG
    IMG_2942.JPG
    1.9 MB · Views: 426
In addition to Palladiums inquiry.
Do you have a picture of the top of the button?

Did you pickle the button in dilute acid to remove the flux?
 
nickvc said:
The xrf reading tells you it's 98.55% Au the main balance is silver.
Which means it's a lot higher than 22K. 22K would be 91.666%. If the XRF says it's 98.55%, and he says it's only 22K, he's already discounting it heavily. Is he proposing to pay full spot for 22K, or is he paying a percentage of that?

Dave
 
Local buyers here are bad to make offers in that manner. I bought an 18K pendant from one of said buyers and processed it. While doing the processing, everything came out according to the math as it should have. Melted it in a new dish with my new unused torch. I then took it back where I bought it and had it tested. It came out 14K according to his test. Funny how that works sometimes. There is not a buyer locally that will make an offer over 22K on anything, and none use any test other than a stone test. I watched one guy make an offer on an 18K ring and since his stone test showed it at 10K that was his offer 10K at 70% of spot. That one is now out of business.
 
Shark said:
Local buyers here are bad to make offers in that manner. I bought an 18K pendant from one of said buyers and processed it. While doing the processing, everything came out according to the math as it should have. Melted it in a new dish with my new unused torch. I then took it back where I bought it and had it tested. It came out 14K according to his test. Funny how that works sometimes. There is not a buyer locally that will make an offer over 22K on anything, and none use any test other than a stone test. I watched one guy make an offer on an 18K ring and since his stone test showed it at 10K that was his offer 10K at 70% of spot. That one is now out of business.

They could be thievin! Or, they could just not know how to correctly use the touchstone for what it is. -a comparative dissolution test.

The local pawn shops dont use standard test needles, and know no better as far as old acid working more slowly than new stuff. So they could just be unknowledgable, and not know that 14, 18, 22k acid is all the same stuff, just varying degrees of strength.. Maybe one of their bottles is brand new, and the rest are from 1999. No standard test streak, and no knowledge of the test itself is going to be bad for the customer, as the shop is (usually) going to be on the conservative side so they don't go bust buying something marked 18k but is really 12k

There are many scenarios I can think of.

But, if they really are offering THAT terrible of a deal, pm me, I can get you a better price than that
 
They know better, most will xrf anything they want to sell. They just won't use it to buy with. It all depends on who comes through that door. I have been offered 90% for karat jewelry, while the lady behind me was offered 50%. I have never sold gold locally, and have hoarded most of what I have. I am not a true hoarder, I am just saving up for a rather large purchase later.
 
I'm going to try to answer as many questions as I can at once,
source, E-Scrap , pins, sockets, fiber and ceramic CPU,and random karet jewelry found on demolition jobs.
Processes , AP wash on most, AR on all eventually, excess nitric consumed rather than de noxx I believe is the term. Mini refrigerator set low for chill addiction of sulphuric,(silver ,lead drop) decant,SMB precip +- 48 hrs. Back and fourth wash of powders as described here on forum I believe,(hot muriatic, hot water 3x each)
Melt, open dish borax flux mapp gas, button dropped into bucket of very cold water.
Clean, buttons(have 2) soak hot tap water to release flux then back in muriatic for couple days the shine it up. Final simple soap wash and done.
Hope I got them all.
I actually re-melted tonight and added some weight to one in photos.
Photos, before re-melt but both sides
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2942.JPG
    IMG_2942.JPG
    1.9 MB · Views: 384
  • IMG_2943.JPG
    IMG_2943.JPG
    1.9 MB · Views: 384
Maybe the appearance is holding him back??? I knows some buyers can be finiky... Maybe a second refining and good filtering would make that look really nice. I just sold 6toz @99.9% purity for 97% spot, so buyers are out there, you may just have to look some more :/
 
mls26 is quite correct there are plenty of good buyers out there you need to look further and you'll find them. I also agree that the looks could be improved somewhat.
 
Ya, it was an ugly melt, dish was too small and I was running low on gas plopped it in cool water too fast.
The guy who XRF for me is actually a friend.
He owns a pawn shop and told me straight out he has to make money and don't want to sell to him and I should trip down to NYC ,(2.5 hrs for me). I wish I saw my own face when he said $1650. when my calculator said $19xx. at bottom of a 5% margin.
I actually brought the weight up to 2ozt last night and plan to re melt for a smooth look.
Another friends wife is an experienced gold and jem seller with dealings on 5th ave NYC. She said she will point me in the right direction for the best price out there.

Thanks everyone for the comments and insight
 
I have a question in terms of the validity of the result...not the opinion of the buyer.

When you turn on an xrf gun, there is a process by which one calibrates the gun against a known alloy.

If I calibrate against a standard, which is actually off, or calibrated the gun for say, stainless....is it possible to get a reading that is a couple % off.

I am thinking of a certain scene in the hunt for red October. The sonar system hears the maglev propulsion system and says it's organic in nature. The line is, "when it gets confused, it runs home to mommy"

Thus is my question. Already, if one doesn't pay extra for the precious metal package, the gun maxes out at a low percentage of ag and I'm not even sure if it (will admit to) recognizing Au.

So that is why I often question the validity...where do the guns run home to when the calibration is skipped, or improperly performed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
A lot of buyers won't pay more than 22K on anything because the highest test acid commonly available is 22K. Maybe, because the button looked so crappy, he didn't trust the XRF and went with the touchstone. The way that button looks, I don't totally blame him. That is one of the ugliest buttons I've ever seen.
 
I'm just wondering if he's still running around looking for that better deal a month later! :D
 
Palladium said:
I'm just wondering if he's still running around looking for that better deal a month later! :D

Possibly, but unlikely...but I had a good day learning about XRF, so I'll share.

snoman701 said:
I have a question in terms of the validity of the result...not the opinion of the buyer.

When you turn on an xrf gun, there is a process by which one calibrates the gun against a known alloy.

If I calibrate against a standard, which is actually off, or calibrated the gun for say, stainless....is it possible to get a reading that is a couple % off.

I am thinking of a certain scene in the hunt for red October. The sonar system hears the maglev propulsion system and says it's organic in nature. The line is, "when it gets confused, it runs home to mommy"

Thus is my question. Already, if one doesn't pay extra for the precious metal package, the gun maxes out at a low percentage of ag and I'm not even sure if it (will admit to) recognizing Au.

So that is why I often question the validity...where do the guns run home to when the calibration is skipped, or improperly performed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

XRF, if anything, will favor the seller when it comes to analysis of a button, or rolled out pin. This is especially true for someone who is taking what the gun says as the truth, without reviewing the actual spectral analysis.

Your elements that are most likely to sway the reading, are those that are close together on the periodic table. In the spectral analysis, the presence of a metal forms a peak at a point corresponding to the energy which forces an electron to jump from one orbit to another. These energies are known, for any given element. Where you run in to trouble, is for example, if you have a sample of platinum, contaminated with mercury or iridium. I don't have the alpha/beta data in front of me, but these lines are so close together, that they can basically overlap...causing a contaminated sample to appear to be pure, or nearly pure. What you end up with is a peak at the platinum energy levels, that will actually contain the peak of say X element with less counts.
 
I didn't think I'd be the one to say this but...

The xrf is functioning as close to perfectly as it can in this situation, there's always room for improper calibration but I doubt it in this case, (and in this case if that were the case it would likely be in your favor, unless your that confident that your sample is 3nines)

The buyer may be using ignorance to his benefit but it doesn't appear that it's necessarily a function of greed, the actual conflict of thinking comes down to...

The xrf is comparatively SUGGESTING 22k gold as an ID for your sample because that is honestly the closest acceptable alloy in it's database, if it had profiles for 23karat (I've never heard of) or even 23.5karat, it would suggest that but most Jewelers (and the xrf in question) don't use any values between 22k and 24k, the minimum value for 24k in it's library it's prolly 2n or 3n Au and .1% Max Cu, your sample doesn't meet those standards so it suggest the next closest,

Now for the human element, obviously, the analysis, alloy ID suggestion, and difference from standards, are all visible on the same screen to you and to the potential buyer, if they offer to buy at 22k instead of at the %Au from the xrf, then one explaination is that they are not refiners and merely brokers, in which case they are going to split the material stream they buy, across karat ID to sell, IE: THEY DONT VALUE THAT EXTRA ~4% AU because they aren't getting paid anymore for it, thats not necessarily ignorant or underhanded, unless they try to lie about some aspect of that exchange.
 
Kaiser613 said:
The xrf is comparatively SUGGESTING 22k gold as an ID for your sample because that is honestly the closest acceptable alloy in it's database.

The original poster hasn't been here in over 2.5 years.
 
Back
Top