Help with unknown metal

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Topher_osAUrus

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Awhile back I had a guy want to sell me some "titanium" and some other stuff. Asked where he got it, said his dad worked in aircraft before he passed away. I thought I may be able to find some use for it eventually. I had no way to definitively tell what it was, but I knew titanium is pretty resistant to nitric. It passed the simple spot test, So I spent $5 on it.

0831171603.jpg
This is the side that appears to have some sort of phase separation or crystal lattice apparent. The next picture, is of the spot that was freshly ground by the grinder.

0831171603a.jpg

I did the "spark test", seen here :arrow: https://youtu.be/T2IFfhN_d-o
Going by this websites guidelines for the spark test results, I am more confused than when I started.
http://www.scrapmetaljunkie.com/241/the-spark-test-and-spark-testing-metals-2

I do not have an accurate scale for its weight, but it is pretty heavy.
(I will try to get a close weight for it)
Its dimensions are 2.5"x4"x5"
It is softer than my pocket knife, so, softer than steel but it was harder than copper when I tried scratching with it.

In my corrosion handbook, it says that titanium is impervious to oxidizing acids like nitric, but attacked by dilute HCl and dilute sulfuric. It does not state how ferociously those 2 acids attack it though.

These are those tests.
0831171631b.jpg

Far left spot is 50/50 nitric
Second from left is HCl
Second from right is 50/50 H2O/HCl
Far right is 20% H2SO4
-it seems all of them are doing nothing. That picture was taken 5 minutes after application.

When I get a little time to get back out to the shop, I will do a few streaks on the touchstone and see if that helps the acid work, and the visibility,


Now, I know the likely hood of anyone knowing what this metal is, is pretty unlikely, but I figured it was worth a shot.
For what its worth
When I first got it, I had it shot with an xrf... That was laughable
It said 25% gold, 25% something else, 25% iron, and a couple other things. I knew that was incorrect since his is calibrated for precious metals.

Anyways..
I am open for any and all suggestions, for what it is, OR, further testing procedures.

My plan is to try: the touchstone, and specific gravity -but, while both are flawed, i believe the latter will be pretty far off since I believe it to be an alloy
 
jimdoc said:
I would try to find someone with an XRF, like maybe a scrapyard to test it.

I have contacted a few of the local yards and none of them have one.
But, I know one of them in wichita does. Heard about it in a round about way, but, so far I have struck out.

That will most likely be my next avenue of approach though. Find a scrapyard or college nearby that has a correctly configured xrf
 
I have a several XRFs. You can flat rate mail it. Maybe you're lucky and it's tantalum. Worst case it's hastelloy C.

Might also be molybdenum as it looks like a sintered product
 
There are many ways we can try to identify unknown metals, spark test, specific gravity or density tests. magnets, chemical tests, and acid tests, hardness test, visual tests, color, surface oxidation on weathering, grain or crystal structures, microscope micro structure analysis, fracture tests, electrical properties, mechanical properties, thermal properties, crystal structure (usually done with acid etching), deformation , ductility, work hardening tests or annealing, melting points, flame tests, XRF and other machine type tests...

Today we have an ever increasing number of alloys, or metal compositions, so one test or several may need to be used to find the identification of an unknown metal.

What the part or metal came from or where it was found can also be helpful in figuring out what it might be.
while lighting of a video can make it harder to tell what the sparks actually look like in person, yours look bright white to me whiter than the reddish or yellow of most iron or carbon steels, the surface corrosion resembles magnesium or a magnesium alloys, but then again you say this is a dense metal with a seemingly high specific gravity, but without a specific gravity test, just holding a chunk of metals in your hand and judging its weight is not always the best way to test its specific gravity, magnesium itself is relatively light weight, but not all alloys with magnesium always are. titanium and many of the alloys are usually corrosion resistant and normally do not oxidize or surface oxidize. aluminum and its alloy oxidize very fast but can be hard to distinguish oxidation without cleaning the surface, magnesium and several othe metals can be alloyed with aluminum.

The metal actually producing sparks in the spark test also can be helpful in eliminating some alloys or metals from the list of suspects, as well as color, length of sparks and splitting or bursts of the blooming ends of the sparks.

Steels normally have a reddish or yellowish sparks, lower the carbon content alloys normally have less blooming or shower at the end of the sparks, higher the carbon the more the flare but also the shorter the main spark is.
Wrought iron does not really produce much of a shower on the long main spark, cast iron (high carbon content) produces a larger shower, gray cast iron produces more of a reddish color, than the more yellowish sparks from gray cast iron.
Alloys in steels can also change the look of the sparks generated on the grinder or sander. tool steels normally make longer sparks with less flares, stainless steels can be magnetic and non magnetic their sparks can be more whitish and not have as much flaring, and stainless steels can be fairly to highly corrosive resistant, without much corrosion on the surface. aluminum oxidizes so easily it is also corrosive resistant although it begins to oxidize in air soon after cleaning its oxide surface, the surface oxidation passivates or protects the base metal below its surface from further oxidation, its oxidation is whitish to grayish, where a metal like magnesium or alloys of will make a more dark gray to blackish oxidation when exposed to the elements. copper, inconel, cupron nickel, brass, or bronze as well as many of the softer metals do not make sparks on a grinding wheel, inconel (nickel, iron and chromium) with its iron content can. Aluminum a soft metal does not normally make sparks although its alloys can like magnesium, or some pot metals, most are very soft although some aluminum alloys can be fairly hard. titanium is normally grayish in color, can get darker with polishing, magnesium oxidizes to a dark gray in the elements.

some metals may take a combination of tests to even try to identify them, others we recognize by sight or with simple tests, other metals may take some advanced scientific tests to identify...
 
butcher said:
while lighting of a video can make it harder to tell what the sparks actually look like in person, ..yours look bright white to me whiter than the reddish or yellow of most iron or carbon steels, the surface corrosion resembles magnesium or a magnesium alloys, ..

Yes, sorry, that lighting was atrociois

I tried to get a better video, but it ended up being worse off. So i picked the lesser of the two crummy captures.

Lou said:
I have a several XRFs. You can flat rate mail it. Maybe you're lucky and it's tantalum. Worst case it's hastelloy C.

Might also be molybdenum as it looks like a sintered product

That is very kind of you, and I will probably take you up on that offer.
Send me a PM with the needed information.


A book I purchased awhile back has a bunch of tests for determination of different types of metals.
It covers a ridiculous amount of alloy types. Sadly, it doesnt have Ti or Zr
While it does cover molybdenum and hastelloy C, the test for Mo is more of a "nil result"

0831172144a.jpg

While I have the necessary chemicals to complete that "test", I am a wee bit off on the required items for hastelloy c.

0831172145.jpg
I have ferro, and not ferricyanide. I suppose I could go through the trouble of converting it... But, mailing it off for analysis sounds more straight forward.


For anyone curious/interested in the complete list of metals in the book..0831172146b.jpg

I do find it kind of funny, or maybe kind of sad, that they dont mention potassium dichromate for silver, and they just say "its color" is enough indication... This book is from INCO, afterall..

Sorry about the picture orientation, I figured out the issue (thanks Dave), but havent quite made it habit yet
 
We speak about 50 cubic inches=819.35 cubic cm. If the weight is less than 6.400 kg then there is nothing exotic about it
 
Since pure Titanium has a density of 4.507 g/cm3, it will give a total weight of 3691
grams for said 50 cubic inches.
And different alloys there of should not deviate too much from that.
Aluminum has appr 2.7 g/cm3 and Mg 1.3 g/cm3 so it can not be mistaken for that.

But the spark test and heat conductivity should also be tell tales.
Ti is a poor heat conductor, so it feels "warm" to the hand.
 
7lbs 12.2 ounces for the weight on it
That will be just a skosh higher than it really is, as it was in a ziploc baggie getting ready to be mailed off to Lou
....then my dr told me I couldn't send the sample
(Sorry, distasteful, and only funny to those who havent been banned elsewhere.. :twisted: )

I'm quite curious to find out what it is... 3500g+/- is pretty close to Ti. My measurements were probably off a wee bit too, so that will throw it off quite a bit..

Yggdrasil said:
Ti is a poor heat conductor, so it feels "warm" to the hand.
It didnt feel noticeably warm to the touch when I would pick it up. Maybe because the weather is turning cooler here, or Im just an inattentive fool that didnt pay that characteristic any mind.

Lino1406 said:
We speak about 50 cubic inches=819.35 cubic cm. If the weight is less than 6.400 kg then there is nothing exotic about it
Not even close to 6.4kg!
So, it probably nothing special at all.

The acid tests left overnight did nothing to it still.
I did not try ar on it though, and I probably should have.

Oh well, Lou will enlighten me (per usual)
Thank you again Lou
 
Lou said:
My money is on Ti. Sparks look familiar. Years of seeing Ti burn...

That wouldn't be a bad thing (to me)
I bought it, with the idea of using it as an inert electrode in a cell.

But, the more and more I read about electrolysis, I believe I would need it to be platinized titanium to be a good candidate.

(Its late, and Ive been up with sick kids during the night for 4 days straight now...so my mind is failing me)
-but-
It was my intent to use it to remove copper from copper nitrate, I think that would be a fail. Since (i may be off on this), the oxidizing acid will passivate the anode and it will continually absorb gas in its oxide layer, preventing the electrons from entering the solution and doing its work.

Am I correct in that thought?
-for some reason I feel its an "almost half truth" and I am mixing up something...
 
It's electron beam melted continuous cast Ti 6-4 billet.
 

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Lou said:
It's electron beam melted continuous cast Ti 6-4 billet.

You're awesome Lou.

So, let me ask you this..
Would it function well as an inert anode in removing copper from nitrate solutions?
Or would it be a complete flop?
 
If you want to remove copper from nitrate solutions, you must be prepared for NOx. In the case of Ti, it anodizes and over potential will build. The best is to use platinized titanium mesh in this case.

I would turn it into a book end or otherwise make something cool out of it.
 
Topher_osAUrus said:
Lou said:
My money is on Ti. Sparks look familiar. Years of seeing Ti burn...

That wouldn't be a bad thing (to me)
I bought it, with the idea of using it as an inert electrode in a cell.

But, the more and more I read about electrolysis, I believe I would need it to be platinized titanium to be a good candidate.

(Its late, and Ive been up with sick kids during the night for 4 days straight now...so my mind is failing me)
-but-
It was my intent to use it to remove copper from copper nitrate, I think that would be a fail. Since (i may be off on this), the oxidizing acid will passivate the anode and it will continually absorb gas in its oxide layer, preventing the electrons from entering the solution and doing its work.

Am I correct in that thought?
-for some reason I feel its an "almost half truth" and I am mixing up something...

There was someone selling platinized anodes on Ebay that they claimed were from King Supply, I have no reason to doubt them. I bought a 2x6" piece of it for $20. But there are plenty of other suppliers.

I'll be ordering some of the carbon felt here in the next month or so. They have a $100 min order, so I'll have plenty. I asked about a sample, and they wanted $50 for two square feet, so I figure I might as well just spend the $100 and get a lifetime supply. I can send you some. My goal was similar for waste treatment, but also expands in to cyanide.
 
Topher_osAUrus said:
Be wary of those "platinized" anodes.

There are plenty of fakes (nurdrage did a video on one or two of them)
Yeah, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDQuP4oCOgo

Göran
 
Topher_osAUrus said:
Be wary of those "platinized" anodes.

There are plenty of fakes (nurdrage did a video on one or two of them)

I learned my lesson about buying cheap on Ebay years ago. I asked on the forum where I could get platinized anodes, nobody responded. From this sellers description, I found kingsupply, which is supposedly the original source of the anodes. Finding them is worth the $20 I spent. My only concern about the platinized anode is that it's clear the seller had a large sheet, and is cutting it up. As there is now exposed titanium, I expect it to decompose from that point. But, it will work for the time being.

This is who I bought from.

https://www.ebay.com/usr/pulgamercado
 
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