Industrial Fixer

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Mmon2616

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
81
:mrgreen: I just want to say thanks to all that have helped lead me in the right direction on this forum and elsewhere. Last week I set up my first client and am in the process of getting the other clients ready. I am also setting up my laboratory this week. I've been so busy that I haven't had much of a chance to get to this fine forum. Once again thanks.

Some where I read about the copper wire test for fixer. It seems that the fixer I have been receiving has around 20g a liter sometimes less and sometimes a little more. My wire coated as though it was being dipped in liquid silver. I was using the zinc method so I know small amounts of zinc were contaminating. One problem I ran into with the zinc method was adding to much zinc. I read on this forum that you should put one gram of zinc per gram of silver. I found that it is way to much zinc. The best way for me was to add .37g of zinc for every gram of silver. I sent a batch of fixer to a great person that reached out to me when things got tough and he completely saturated the fix until silver chloride(or something that look similar) actually dropped out. He is now one of my business partners as well. Now I'm no chemist and I have little experience but it is what works for me.

I am using a different method for my clients and it seems to work much more efficiently and the best part is it's cheap and it takes a few hours a month and I'm done.

I do collect the film but it is almost a headache with everything else I have going on. My business partner helps me with that until I can find a cheap easy way to process it.
I have some ferric chloride for the exposed film but I haven't researched it enough to use it just yet.

The reason I decided to process industrial X-ray chemicals and film is because most of the people I know just dump it on the ground. I have a lot of contacts in the industry so if I can help the environment, give the a return, and do something I love then why not.

I still consider myself a rookie and I know that I haven't scratched the surface of recovery and refining but I have learned a lot and made quite a few mistakes in the process. I am willing to help if anyone needs it and I am also willing to take advice as well. I am on here right now because of some problems I ran into. Right when I think I have one thing down I get thrown a curve.

I hope everyone has an amazing night and an even better tomorrow.


Thanks to All

Michael/m6m
 

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I think it is great that you are making a business of this. I notice that you are in the US. have you checked into the EPA requirements to receive waste into your shop? There are exemptions for precious metal reclamation but as silver is a RCRA metal you may need to be licensed to receive this material for processing. The material should be traveling with a waste manifest having you listed as the responsible party for the ultimate waste disposal.

To prevent issues down the line you should check into the regulations as it pertains to the quantities you will receive for processing.
 
if the "before" beaker is the industrial fixer, i have a serious doubt.
Industrial fixer tends to be yellowish and becomes more brown the more silver it contains.
I've never seen 20g/liter in industrial fixer, it would be to silver-rich and thus less effective in fixing the industrial film.

Our Xray operators change there developing and fixing solutions when they start loosing there quality.
This results in fixer solution with around 7gr/liter and more dark yellow, brown.

If you state that only 0,37gr of Zinc would be enough, this suggest that your solution was containing almost a third of what you suspected.
So around 6 or 7 gr/liter, which sounds normal for spent fixer.

I suggest you do some more test on the original fixer to determine the silver-contents more accurately

best regards

Fonnie

edit: typo
 
Yes I have check the with EPA and everything is in line.
I have a license from the environmental quality department.

As for the before pic it is actually a dilute silver nitrate solution.

I have ran many test and the fixer I get from one technician was completely saturated because he didn't have time to change chemicals so he just used them until they stopped. You can doubt all you want but apparently your getting low silver content. I also clear unexposed film in my fixer until a white cloud (silver chloride) starts to form. I also have a partner that helps and the batch I sent him tested and produced 18.5g/liter. The fixer I receive is from industrial X-ray trucks. I used to so X-ray and we used our fixer until it was almost impossible to clear film. I don't know where you get yours from but it must be from people that keep up their fix. Tomorrow I will put more pics up. The fix I received doesn't have a yellow tint to it. It is almost orange. Even the first rinse has about 10g a liter and it does have a yellow tint. Sorry I didn't post a pic of the fix. There is a guy on this forum that knows That everything I posted is fact. Pm me and I will help you understand what I'm dealing with. I hope you all have a great evening and Monday. Lord knows Mondays are hectic.
I have what's in the pics but I also have more silver chloride from the batch I am processing later. I totally understand that it's not normal for fixer to have this much but the technicians I know push their chems to the absolute limit. I hope you aren't calling me a liar. Like I said there is a guy on this forum that has taken some and had the same results.

I appreciate and help and knowledge that is shared with me.

Thanks again to GRF
Michael


Help others so that they don't make the same mistakes you have.
 

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Hi michael,
congraturation for the good fixer you are getting. From your picture dont let your silver chloride get dry before conversion to silver metal. Keep it just covered with water so that when doing conversion most of your silver chloride comes into contact with Naoh and the karo syrup, if that is your route.
Regards,
Esau.
 
Thanks for you help but that is not silver chloride in the photos. That is dried silver crystals that I cemented out with copper. I appreciate all advice though. As I have learned early on not to let silver chloride dry. I have a big jar that I keep my silver chloride in until it gets full then I rinse. It always has a few inches of water on it so that it does not dry.

Once again I appreciate the concern and thank you for trying to help.

Hope you have an amazing day
Michael
 
I'm not calling anybody a liar, there is no reason to.

My experience is that the industrial fixer tends to be lower in silver-contents. Around 7g/liter.

20g/liter, wow I could only hope for that.

The fixer I have seen is also from an NDT company, but maybe they are not pushing there chemicals that far, they're using automatic developing machines but also truck-mounted. (Field Gammaray NDT)

How are you treating the chemicals?

first dropping with zinc? and then dissolving in nitric acid + copper-drop?

best regards

Fonnie
 
.37g of zinc per gram of silver has nothing to do with my silver return on the 20g liter batch. Sorry if you have never seen fixer with that much silver but I promise my brothers fix has am excess of 20g per liter occasionally. He renders his fix completely useless. It was taking 12 minutes to clear film. Most technicians change theirs mush sooner. I have done many test with zinc and other methods and I found that if you use .37g of zinc you will drop at least a gram of silver. It may actually be less zinc per gram of silver but that's just where I got my best results.


Do you have any proof or suggestions that state otherwise. I am open and would appreciate any help or knowledge you may be willing to share? I am fairly new at this and am learning as I go. Fortunately I work in the industrial inspection industry and I have many contacts and resources enough to start a business in recovery. Which I have pursued. Any information would be welcome. Thanks for your concern and help.


Best regards
Michael
 
I understand that automatic processors fixer are changesd regularly but I am getting manual fix.

I have been experimenting with several methods of recovery

Method 1 is zinc. I drop the silver with zinc then do a 20% sulphuric bath to remove most left over zinc that did not convert. Then I dissolve in nitric. Then cement out with copper.

Method 2 is steel shavings. I can't really explain the unit I created but I've made 4 prototypes. I connect them to the tanks I have at my clients place of business and I change them out every 30 days to take contents and melt then dissolve and cement .


Method 3 I am working on recovering electrically.

I am still learning and trying to experiment with all methods to find the easiest cheapest way to do it with as little time in as possible. The units I have created are just basically plug and sit. It catches %99 of the silver. The fixer never has to leave the job site. But it's still a work in progress.


If my clients so choose I will also run their cut of the silver through a cell and put it in custom molds for them. There are no recovery or refiners within 90 miles of where I'm at and we have a super high concentration of industrial X-ray companies as I live in a place with at least 20 petroleum refineries among others.

I may have taken it the wrong way but in this forum I have had many doubters and when you say doubt that generally means "do not believe". I understand not to many people see this type of fixer so I get it. I apologize. I am a honest and fair person and I am always here to help people as well.

I am also willing to ship you some just so you can experience it for fun. I am generous and want people to have as much fun as I am. May sound strange or ridiculous but I don't care that just the way I am.

Have a great evening and an even better tomorrow
Michael.
 
By the way. It's not every batch of fixer I get. It's only a few a month that are that saturated. Like I said it gets so saturated that it starts to drop silver chloride. I also have a bunch of unexposed film so I try to push it further when I get it .
 
I've created something to go the electrolysis way
see my other post.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=20201&p=207654#p207654

quite a simple setup, but it seems to work well.

plastic box, arc-air carbon anode and stainless steel strips for the cathode, DC supply and a pump to keep it moving.

It's ok for smaller quantity, not for huge amounts.

Problem is there is still some silver in the fixer after the process, and maybe the zinc / sulpheric / nitric / copper-drop would be the next experiment, to recover what is still in the fixer.

My doubt was never a disbelief.

You don't need to send me a sample, but I appreciate the offer.

best regards

Fonnie
 
You don't need to worry about that last bit with an electrolysis unit. Put a steel wool cartridge unit inline with a recirculation pump after you think the electrolysis is done all it can then you will be down to less than 1ppm and below most regulations that I know of for discharge.

This is how I would set this up if I had a continuous supply of fix to process. It would be worth the cost of equipment but would run mostly automated and save a ton of labor. Just change out some electrodes and steel wool cartridges once in a while. Then dry and melt the silver from the electrolysis electrode and process the sludge in the cartridge every 3 to 6 months depending on how often you need.

This is the way hospitals and printing companies did it for decades. The fix went into a electrolysis tank, with the overflow from the tank through a steel wool cartridge. When maintained well there is almost no silver left in what went down the drain and what is recovered is 99%+ pure.
 
Absolutely. I know electrolysis isn't the way to go for large quantities. Unless I can figure a way to pump the fix through a ss cathode or pay for a very expensive inert cathode. I'm still learning and I know even then with all of the things I've been learning doing it electrically will not get all of the silver out. But I am experimenting and learning and I really appreciate you guys help. I take everything people tell me and try to learn from it.

As far as the cartridge I do have something similar I built. I use gravity to push the fix through at 100ml a minute. I have a few prototypes that have been really good and I can build 4 for 100 bucks. It's just taking time to build and my next issue is security. People could just take them if they really wanted to. One of my client is directly across from the county jail and they have already had problem. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't know what they are looking at and would be hard for one person to pick up and throw over a fence but it could be done.


Thanks again
Michael
 
Fonnie.

How do you treat your fix? I know you have said a couple ways you do things but is there a way you think is most practical? I am always willing to learn. What all do you recover pms from? Can I pm you? I have many questions just to pick your brain because I want to learn everything I can.

Best regards!
Michael
 
for the moment I'm just doing electrolysis on industrial fixer, pumping from a plastic jerrycan to a plastic box, overflow to the jerrycan, and let it run.
It just needs a bit of adjusting amperage as the silvercontents goes down, to avoid black (Sulfide) deposit.

When all (nothing on silverestimation paper) is recovered, I start the next batch.
I now have some jerrycans with 'cleaned' fixer, which I know has still some Ag in it, hence the question of the Zincproces

I've already poured some small bars (around 50gram), but for the moment just collecting for a bigger bar.

In the mean time I'm passing undeveloped film to the 'cleaned' fixer, so I can restart the recovery.

Next plan is to try to recover silver from developed film, going the Fe3Cl way. Problem is finding the chemicals.

You should also note: I'm not doing this as a business, more as an experiment or hobby.

If I would calculate everything (hours, electricity, chemicals, labor, tools) I do not know if it is worth a lot.
I'm not recovering anything other than Ag, and maybe in the future I will start a 'silver cell', to refine the final product. but again: is getting the extra 9 or 2 9's really worth it all? (financially worth for me, as a hobbyist, I mean)

You can PM me, I think

Regards

Fonnie
 
Actually electrolysis is the way to go for large quantities.

The economy of scale will pay for a commercial unit from a printing company or such in no time. You can find them used on eBay, Amazon, etc. These units have auto adjusting volts/amperage to compensate for the fluctuation in silver content.

Just setup a recirculating pump to keep the fix flowing from a plastic barrel of fix through the unit until it has recovered all it can. Then put the steel cartridge in place of the electrolysis unit and crank up the recirculation again.

With several sets of barrels you can keep it running while collecting more and just change out the units from barrel to barrel.
 
I will state an obvious point his forum exists to promote knowledge to all so please don't go to PMs to discuss this keep it on open forum so others may learn :idea:
 
@nickvc

everybody can PM me, it's a free world after all :lol:

everything I know, as little as it may be, I will/can share on this fabulous forum . (learned most of it here or on the net)

if you want to know something, just ask. I'm certainly not an expert, just experimenting around, hobby-wise. :p

I'll share the little knowledge I have, but I can not answer questions, if they are not asked.

I'm not much of a forum poster, more a reader, so please ask your question, and I will try to give 'my truth' or 'opinion'.

I appreciate the openness of this forum, and the sharing of knowledge, and I do want to share mine.

best regards

Fonnie
 
Fonnie
My concerns are we don't want any off forum discussions on an already open thread, if anyone has propriety knowledge they are not willing to share don't hint and go quiet, we all need to make a living either through refining or some other profession so im happy if thats the reason members go quiet, I know that maybe some members are scrared to post what they know, we have very many top professional chemists/'refiners who say nothing but happily trawl the forum looking for new methods or confirmation of their ideas, maybe even new thoughts for them to follow.
I remain in the belief of the ideal of the forum as far as I can and help and advise where I can, perhaps I know more than I say but then again perhaps I don't, I'm no chemist and only learnt from experience with all that goes with that but sharing with others has its own benefits that perhaps its why I remain here.
 
See as I have been researching and gathering most information I've learned and been told by people that I think are pretty reputable that electrolysis was not the way to go. I am glad to hear from someone that uses it

In the beginning I was considering going with it but everyone I was hearing from said just use steel wool cartridges. I can get steel shavings for about 8cents a lb at a local junk yard. It's mush cheaper than the steel wool and a lot better for the type of cartridges I am designing. It has filtration and a few other little gadgets that ensure that 99% of the silver is recovered from the fix. It cost me about 100 bucks and about 3 hours to build 4. I'm running into some minor issues but it's been pretty affective.


I have (3) 275 gallon tanks at my clients shops. One is strictly for fix and one for desilvered fix. The other is for rinse waters. Right now I am learning and my clients know that.

I really appreciate all the information you are presenting. This is helping me tremendously. I want to learn the most cost effective way to process this fix. I absolutely love recovery and refining and hope to learn as much as possible.

If you need some ferric chloride I can send you the info via pm. I have a supplier that can ship anything you need at a fair price or I can get it for you and ship. It is 98%. It costs about 20 bucks for 500g. The larger the quantity the better the price.

The reason I asked for you to pm me is because I would like to discuss some issues that I don't think should be discussed in a public setting. It's not that I am trying to keep anything from the forum it's just for professional reasons. It seems this forum is micromanaged at times and I have asked certain questions and got replies that weren't beneficial to what I was doing. I am very hesitant about posting questions because of this. It seems as though some people have to much time on their hands. I know I know very little about recovery and refining and have a lot to learn so some of my questions may seem ridiculous to some. I don't have a degree in chemistry and haven't dealt with this in any form until I started about 9 months ago. I hope we can continue this discussion without further problems.

I am on my phone so I have to go back and read your post.
 

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