Refining catalytic converters [help needed]

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Shawn618

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
16
Hey guys!

Shawn here. So I got my hands on a pretty neat cat not sure of the make and model of it,
But I'm looking to refining it. Iv been refining gold for a while now and I am pretty comfortable with that process,
And with P.M's Aqua Regia but this has a few more steps involved, and I'm
Up to the the challenge with your help! Iv read Hokes book have Matthew wangs but I could still use some words from you,
So far the steps taken

decanted cat
Grinder 1/2 honeycomb to powder
Incinerating honeycomb in brick furnace

Now I'm not sure if this honeycomb or the sulfur has completely burnt away,
So I'm not certain if I should move on to the AR,

I'll post some pictures and let me know if you think it looks correct.
 

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Oh boy!!! You made a very big mistake by grinding them. Here is the post that will tell you why you made a big mistake.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=20473
 
Not a problem I still have the other half intact, how do I go about that?
Drop it in AR? No roasting or incinerating ?
 
Shawn,
It is not that you cannot leach the crushed material, it is just more difficult.
I would incinerate the honey comb to remove carbon, oils, organics that can cause problems.
Aqua regia or one of the other methods can be used, HCl/NaClO (bleach, sodium hypochlorite) or HCl/ concentrated H2O2
Check out Kurtak's recent post you may find it very helpful.
 
Shawn

What you are doing here is considered a "small batch" which you can do without to much problem - I will explain what you need to do when I am done posting in this thread http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=20573 --- so hang on for a few days & I will get back to tell you what you need to do here

Kurt
 
kurtak said:
Shawn

What you are doing here is considered a "small batch" which you can do without to much problem - I will explain what you need to do when I am done posting in this thread http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=20573 --- so hang on for a few days & I will get back to tell you what you need to do here

Kurt

Thanks Kurt. I will follow this thread too to get the idea. I am also having some few converter which I want to do on small scale. Waiting for your inputs. Thanks
 
kurtak said:
Shawn

What you are doing here is considered a "small batch" which you can do without to much problem - I will explain what you need to do when I am done posting in this thread http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=20573 --- so hang on for a few days & I will get back to tell you what you need to do here

Kurt


Hey Kurt!

Awesome to hear from you!thanks for all this interest and support,

so i actually went ahead and tired both methods
Hcl+NaNo3 and the Hcl+bleach(4%hypocholrite)
and am using Ammonium chloride,

lets call the AR beaker A and the Hcl/Cl beaker B

now i have used the Ammonium chloride on noxxed AR but it was poor mans ar to begin with so not a lot of noxxing to do.
and i had a somewhat white precipitate, kinda confused \...

also i had whole honeycombs in beaker B let it soak for 3 days and put it in a warm water bath each day and let it cool i as i added more bleach... than the last day i heated the bath water up and let it sit for 2hours than added Ammonium chloride
getting the same white/greenish drop.. maybe its my Ammonium chloride..? but i have a good source so not sure..

thanks for your time
Shawn :)
 
Shawn618 said:
kurtak said:
Shawn

What you are doing here is considered a "small batch" which you can do without to much problem - I will explain what you need to do when I am done posting in this thread http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=20573 --- so hang on for a few days & I will get back to tell you what you need to do here

Kurt


Hey Kurt!

Awesome to hear from you!thanks for all this interest and support,

so i actually went ahead and tired both methods
Hcl+NaNo3 and the Hcl+bleach(4%hypocholrite)
and am using Ammonium chloride,

lets call the AR beaker A and the Hcl/Cl beaker B

now i have used the Ammonium chloride on noxxed AR but it was poor mans ar to begin with so not a lot of noxxing to do.
and i had a somewhat white precipitate, kinda confused \...

also i had whole honeycombs in beaker B let it soak for 3 days and put it in a warm water bath each day and let it cool i as i added more bleach... than the last day i heated the bath water up and let it sit for 2hours than added Ammonium chloride
getting the same white/greenish drop.. maybe its my Ammonium chloride..? but i have a good source so not sure..

thanks for your time
Shawn :)


Please post pictures. A clear picture would be good. That will help the members to give suggestions. Post every pictures. By the way according to me HCL/CL leach would require atleast 7 days. Everyday you have to add little CL in to the HCL dipped combs. 3 days I am not sure would leach out the values properly.
By the way are you sure its of petrol engine? India is famous for CNG and diesel type cats. That is also affect the recovery.
 
Shawn618 said:
kurtak said:
Shawn

What you are doing here is considered a "small batch" which you can do without to much problem - I will explain what you need to do when I am done posting in this thread http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=20573 --- so hang on for a few days & I will get back to tell you what you need to do here

Kurt


Hey Kurt!

Awesome to hear from you!thanks for all this interest and support,

so i actually went ahead and tired both methods
Hcl+NaNo3 and the Hcl+bleach(4%hypocholrite)
and am using Ammonium chloride,

lets call the AR beaker A and the Hcl/Cl beaker B

now i have used the Ammonium chloride on noxxed AR but it was poor mans ar to begin with so not a lot of noxxing to do.
and i had a somewhat white precipitate, kinda confused \...

also i had whole honeycombs in beaker B let it soak for 3 days and put it in a warm water bath each day and let it cool i as i added more bleach... than the last day i heated the bath water up and let it sit for 2hours than added Ammonium chloride
getting the same white/greenish drop.. maybe its my Ammonium chloride..? but i have a good source so not sure..

thanks for your time
Shawn :)

Shawn

Sorry for such a delay in responding but a have "a lot" on my plate right now

You are having a problem because you are trying to use a refining process (ammonium chloride) when you are still in the recovery stage of the process

What you need to do is "first" recover your PGMs from the leach with a zinc drop (cementing) which will give you back your PGM black (Pd/Pt/Rh) you then re-dissolve the PGM black for the refining step

Kurt
 


Please post pictures. A clear picture would be good. That will help the members to give suggestions. Post every pictures. By the way according to me HCL/CL leach would require atleast 7 days. Everyday you have to add little CL in to the HCL dipped combs. 3 days I am not sure would leach out the values properly.
By the way are you sure its of petrol engine? India is famous for CNG and diesel type cats. That is also affect the recovery.[/quote]


Hey Slayer,

i will deff post some pics up soon, im having a few issues with my phone =( but will have things figured out for sure!
and 7 days you say?
thats not a problem at all.. i actually would be more satisfied let it soak for a longer time.

and when i got the cat he told me it was a diesel. dude even if i can recover 1g of pt im in profit..

i also have a foil cat not sure what to do with that, will leave it for a later project,

but yea ill snap some pictures of the drop i have.. i dont toss any off my solvents as i am sure that there is Pd in the since it dissolves first,

thanks for your time effort and help friends =)

Shawn
 
[/quote]

Shawn

Sorry for such a delay in responding but a have "a lot" on my plate right now

You are having a problem because you are trying to use a refining process (ammonium chloride) when you are still in the recovery stage of the process

What you need to do is "first" recover your PGMs from the leach with a zinc drop (cementing) which will give you back your PGM black (Pd/Pt/Rh) you then re-dissolve the PGM black for the refining step

Kurt[/quote]

Hey Kurt,

some solid information there! and take your time bro, you sharing this knowledge is a gift.
and i say this from all of us that we are grateful.

now how many days do you recommend i let the honeycombs soak for?

and in what ratio would i add the CL
do i place it in a warm water bath?

also zinc bar? or zinc chloride?

sorry for all these questions but i find precious metal refining so damn interesting and am craving to learn :oops:

thanks for all this support
truly means alot
your patawan :wink:
shawn
 
kurtak said:
Shawn

What you are doing here is considered a "small batch" which you can do without to much problem - I will explain what you need.

Kurt

Hey Kurt can you post step by step process for crushed honeycomb? I know how to leach a full cat by hcl/cl by Steve method but I am not getting success in crushed honeycomb. Can you tell us the percentage of chemicals or AR or hcl/cl is better and is it necessary to heat the AR and how many days leaching is advised?? Also pd is easy to recover so after recovering pd we have to move to Pt or RH. I mean steps for crushed combs. This will be to helpful for new people too. There are many threads to explain how to refine the black powder after adding zinc but I have not found steps for crushed combs in details. So the steps before refining would be helpful. I mean recovering the pgm from dust.

Thanks
 
Slayer-PGM said:
kurtak said:
Shawn

What you are doing here is considered a "small batch" which you can do without to much problem - I will explain what you need.

Kurt

Hey Kurt can you post step by step process for crushed honeycomb? I know how to leach a full cat by hcl/cl by Steve method but I am not getting success in crushed honeycomb. Can you tell us the percentage of chemicals or AR or hcl/cl is better and is it necessary to heat the AR and how many days leaching is advised?? Also pd is easy to recover so after recovering pd we have to move to Pt or RH. I mean steps for crushed combs. This will be to helpful for new people too. There are many threads to explain how to refine the black powder after adding zinc but I have not found steps for crushed combs in details. So the steps before refining would be helpful. I mean recovering the pgm from dust.

Thanks


hey Slayer,

i know the question was not directed a me, however i have read Matthew Wang China's method in which he says,
thats it should be at an 18 percent ratio and should not exceed 25% and leach for a mininum 7 days with mixing the solvent continously.. and i think he mean to recover the black power re-disolve it and than drop Pt,Pd and Rh..

from my uderstanding... correct me if im wrong

Thanks
shawn
 
Thanks. By the way any news on Kurt? I am still waiting for his inputs and his knowledge on crushed combs and the way to refine small batches.
 
Slayer-PGM said:
Thanks. By the way any news on Kurt? I am still waiting for his inputs and his knowledge on crushed combs and the way to refine small batches.



haha yea man me too! =) his knowledge is a gift but im sure hes busy and will get at us as soon as he can,

we can throw some questions out there and he can check em out when he has a chance.

like right now i have a full honeycomb converter and a full foil converter.

the honeycomb one i have is 1/2 grinded into powder and 1/2 in full blocks

and the foil is cut in half

im kinda not too sure about what to do with it but im waiting for kurt,

what i think i will probably do is :

take the powder and the whole pieces and throw them in a 5 gallon plastic container
than fill it up with hcl untill it covers all the whole pieces completely... which i think should be about 2 liters of hcl
than add my bleach (CL) which is 10% sodium hypochlorite..

wait one week

than use zinc to drop it.. now im not sure if i need a zinc bar or zinc chloride powder but ill have it figured out by the time we get there..

but after that ill wash that black powder (which i will have dropped with zinc ) and dry it..

than redissolve it ( now i have a question to whoever could answer it : do i redissolve it in AR or HCL/CL?)

than use ammonium chloride to get my bright orange powder..

than i will save my solvents because it still contains Pd. and Rh.

i was also told that you cant melt that Orange powder into metallic platinum with a oxy torch
because its not good for your eyes (iv herd idk how true)
melting the powder into its metallic state is my favorite part so that kinda sucks haha...

but i have a friend who has a diamond factory so he uses a high grade furnace..

what do you guys think?

thanks for reading
Shawn
 
I never crush my combs because the crushed material is so hard to get the solution to wet into. The surface of the comb is where the wash coat is applied, so crushing only complicates recovery and filtration.

I never mix foil types with combs or beads. I keep all types separated and process in batches.

Do not process metal foils cats in HCl-Cl.

Extraction using HCl-Cl is sped up slightly by gently heating between 30-60C and adding the chlorine as in small doses over the course of the reaction. Producing too much chlorine all at once is only creating a cloud of poisonous gas, as chlorine is not very soluble in HCl at the reaction temperatures.

Chlorine should be added so that it enters the solution from the bottom of the reaction. This allows the gas to pass through the comb structure where the values are. Pouring the Clorox on top of the reaction produces chlorine at the surface of the solution, most of which escapes into the air and is useless for extraction.

Circulating the HCl-Cl solution through the structure of the comb aids in extraction.

Check your cats before you begin extraction to make sure they contain PMs. There are many thieves out there that sell 'pre-washed' cats, still in the can. Processing a small sample of the comb in a test tube and testing with stannous chloride will detect the presence of Pd and Pt. Processing the crushed material in a sulfate melt followed by stannous testing will detect Rh. Do not assume your cats contain PMs unless you have tested a sample and confirmed such. Do not run larger batches until the small scale tests are found to be positive on each cat.

I hope this helps.

Steve
 
lazersteve said:
I never crush my combs because the crushed material is so hard to get the solution to wet into. The surface of the comb is where the wash coat is applied, so crushing only complicates recovery and filtration.

I never mix foil types with combs or beads. I keep all types separated and process in batches.

Do not process metal foils cats in HCl-Cl.

Extraction using HCl-Cl is sped up slightly by gently heating between 30-60C and adding the chlorine as in small doses over the course of the reaction. Producing too much chlorine all at once is only creating a cloud of poisonous gas, as chlorine is not very soluble in HCl at the reaction temperatures.

Chlorine should be added so that it enters the solution from the bottom of the reaction. This allows the gas to pass through the comb structure where the values are. Pouring the Clorox on top of the reaction produces chlorine at the surface of the solution, most of which escapes into the air and is useless for extraction.

Circulating the HCl-Cl solution through the structure of the comb aids in extraction.

Check your cats before you begin extraction to make sure they contain PMs. There are many thieves out there that sell 'pre-washed' cats, still in the can. Processing a small sample of the comb in a test tube and testing with stannous chloride will detect the presence of Pd and Pt. Processing the crushed material in a sulfate melt followed by stannous testing will detect Rh. Do not assume your cats contain PMs unless you have tested a sample and confirmed such. Do not run larger batches until the small scale tests are found to be positive on each cat.

I hope this helps.

Steve


Hey Steve,

very eye opening information there,

my question was what would be the host to drop the Pt.
i read ammonium chloride would do the trick.. but that guide also
suggested to grind and incinerate the combs...

i was told zinc by Kurt but not sure in what forum..
id also like to be explained what reaction takes place..
i feel its very important to know why you do what you do..
rather than just knowing what to do.. thanks

also how do you go about the foil converters?
any threads on that... cant seem to find much
with my searches..

thanks alot Steve

Shawn
 
I prefer using potassium chloride to precipitate the Pt. The primary reason for this is that the resulting potassium salt is easier to wash and converts back to Pt metal without the hard to manage ammonium chloride vapors.

The zinc is best applied as turnings. I find that approximately 0.5 to 1.0 inch wide cornets of zinc turnings to have the right surface area to dissolve evenly while producing the best consistency mixed PGM blacks (settle fast and rinse easily). The starting PGM concentration of the solution is another factor that affects the consistency of the resulting mixed blacks.

The dissolution equations of Platinum, Palladium, and Rhodium in a Chlorine milieu are well documented. The primary factors affecting the reaction efficiency and rate are HCl concentration, reaction pressure, temperature, and time of exposure of the wash coat to the solution. Secondary factors include PGM salt concentration and free chlorine.

I have recently found that pretreatment of the combs with formic acid at room temperature can greatly increase the extraction of the PGMs.

I do not process foil cats so I can not help you with them. Here's a quick search result for foil cats

Foil Cats Search

Steve
 
lazersteve said:
I prefer using potassium chloride to precipitate the Pt. The primary reason for this is that the resulting potassium salt is easier to wash and converts back to Pt metal without the hard to manage ammonium chloride vapors.

I have recently found that pretreatment of the combs with formic acid at room temperature can greatly increase the extraction of the PGMs.

Steve

Hey thanks for the info Steve. I have your CD and in the CD you have used ammonium chloride and Sodium chlorate for PT and PD. Now your recent study tells you that potassium chloride is better that the ones in your CD? So we should use that?

Also what exactly you mean by pretreatment of the combs with formic acid? It it like dip the whole crushed honeycombs in Formic acid before putting in HCL and adding chlorine everyday or Using formic acid instead of HCL?
Also if we dip it formic acid which PGM will be dissolve in formic acid? Thank you.

Good to see you on forums.. :)
 
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