Help choosing a torch

Gold Refining Forum

Help Support Gold Refining Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

MarcoP

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
735
Location
Sicily Island
Due my ignorance at this matters I'm undecided on the torch(es) to get. Incineration and melting is what they are needed for.

Butane, probably cheap to run, incineration:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/170779805904

GPL, probably cheap to run, incineration and melting:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/171001792083

MAPP? Oxygen, probably expensive to run, exclusively for melting:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/170381361383
Would I be able to melt tiny BBs of platinum?

For sure I'll be getting the supposedly MAPP gas torch but I'm really undecided with getting the butane or the GPL.

Please, any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Marco
 
I'm still not up to torches yet. But when this appeared late last year, I took notice.
A bit more power in a standard torch might be all you need.

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=21193&p=218479&hilit=nice+torch+burner#p218479

The original post referred is here:
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=21112&p=218141&hilit=nice+torch+burner#p218141

I hope these are helpful.
 
I've followed that thread and is indeed a great modification. The thing is those torches, and replacements bottles, are not available locally. Even if I'll pursuit the idea of a modification I would still need to be able to find the gas locally otherwise it would really get expensive, and if I know my self I will modify the torch if needed.

Basically, as you say, more juice is probably all I need but I need to find a good starting point. To make it worse the GPL torch will need a 5Kg (minimum size possible, up to 21Kg) gas bottle and moving that around it's going to be an issue for me but on the same time it will be able to provide enough gas to finish either process I'm doing especially if I modify the torch (in this case I probably won't even need the MAPP torch which is a good news).

Yeah your reply did helped clarifying some doubts of mine, I reckon I should just go for a modified GPL torch.
 
MarcoP said:
MAPP? Oxygen, probably expensive to run, exclusively for melting:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/170381361383
Would I be able to melt tiny BBs of platinum?

Marco

Hydrogen is the preferred gas for melting PGMs because it burns "hot" but also because it burns "clean" (no carbon)

Carbon is one of the problems when melting PGMs with a torch as PGMs will absorb the carbon from other gases (propane, MAPP, acetylene) causing it to swell & become brittle

Propane, MAPP, acetylene - none of those gasses alone will get hot enough to melt PGMs by them self - but all of them will get hot enough if mixed with oxygen (regulated tank set up)

acetylene (oxy) is the hottest - but also the dirtiest as it has a triple carbon bond so not a good choice for PGMs due to the high carbon

MAPP (oxy) gas is the next hottest - I am not sure of the carbon but MAPP is a mix of acetylene & propane (& propadiene) because it is a mix I think it is a "bit" cleaner then acetylene - but still dirty

Propane (oxy) is the coolest of the 3 (but still hot enough to melt PGMs) & it is the cleanest of the 3 because it only has a single carbon bond

Therefore oxy/propane is the better choice for meting PGMs if you are not (can not) set up to do it with oxy/hydrogen

Kurt
 
Kurt! You hit the nail with your outstanding post. As soon I've searched "propane oxygen" I was amazed of the results! What I've believed to be MAPP, for lack of description, is instead a oxy/propane torch and I'm going to get one!

Regarding the oxy/propane torch, there are different models. The top model has a pressure regulator each bottle, but what's the main benefit that those provides? I mean, the torch already have a valve for oxygen and one for propane, why a second valve?
Eg: http://www.ebay.it/itm/181171669271
 
MarcoP said:
Kurt! You hit the nail with your outstanding post. As soon I've searched "propane oxygen" I was amazed of the results! What I've believed to be MAPP, for lack of description, is instead a oxy/propane torch and I'm going to get one!

Regarding the oxy/propane torch, there are different models. The top model has a pressure regulator each bottle, but what's the main benefit that those provides? I mean, the torch already have a valve for oxygen and one for propane, why a second valve?
Eg: http://www.ebay.it/itm/181171669271

It has a secondary valve at the handle to regulate your flame the way you want it to be.
 
Thanks for all replies! By looking up for new keywords, coming from your posts, I've gathered few new info's and coming up with a better plan.

Under a touch, silver and palladium absorbs oxygen so for silver a gas furnace or oxy/acetylene would be better.
Palladium is also allergic to carbons coming from fuels and could be cooled under a reducing hydrogen flame.
Gold is relatively easy to melt over any oxyfuel torch like platinum but yet to study more about them all.

Doing the sum, would a good quality hydrogen welder (jewellery like, or better?) be up for the all-in-one torch award (including feeding a small furnace)? It runs with water and I believe it's cheaper to run then all others. If so, could any hydrogen generator be modified to become a welder with all safety valves etc?

Marco
 
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=20354&p=208473&hilit=torch+kit#p208473
 
Palladium, I probably se your point in getting a good torch and I quickly found a decent deal of a rarely used torch ... sure it needs an instruction manual :oops:

Oxygen bottles aren't that cheap as you say, I probably need to look little more for a 5 liters one ... does anyone knows how long a 0.5L oxygen cylinder could last for?
And, how would I hook that to a bbq gas bottle?
 

Attachments

  • C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved Images_0366951828.jpg
    C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved Images_0366951828.jpg
    57.7 KB · Views: 258
A half liter of oxygen would border on being worthless. I used to consume 250 cubic feet of oxygen in about two weeks. Keep in mind, I refined on a daily basis.

It would pay you to explore the possibility of buying an oxygen bottle, one that could be exchanged for a fee when it was empty. Leasing such bottles is not a good idea unless you consume a large amount of oxygen. If you own your own bottle, the only expense is the purchase price, which you would quickly pay under a lease, yet you wouldn't own the bottle, and may be charged a fee if it isn't exchanged on a regular basis. That's how things used to be here in the US, although they may be different now. In any case, owning a bottle which can be exchanged (or refilled) is the smart way to go.

You may not be able to use hydrogen with that torch, as the regulator may or may not be proper for that type of fuel, and the tips may not have the proper jet sizing, either. I don't know, but that's something you need to explore unless you use the recommended fuel for which the torch was made.. Might be a good idea to go online to see if you can learn anything about it from the maker.

I no longer remember the brand of Hoke torch I used to use, but it was a large torch, much like a rosebud type oxy/acet torch. in my case, it was fueled with natural gas and bottled oxygen. It was sold by a jewelry supply house, which no longer has the torch, so I fear the maker is no longer in business.

Harold
 
Thank you Harold! I'm actually coming from a place where they sell and refill oxygen and gas. 10L costs 10% more then 5L when buying or refilling the bottle, expensive to buy but cheap to refill. I might start looking for a used 10L bottle and it would probably last me a year if no more.

The torch in the picture is oxyacetylene, sure it would have been great if it could run hydrogen too.

Marco
 
Buying a used torch and regulators is like buying a pig in the poke! Chances are you will have to change out the o rings in the torch and have the regulators rebuilt. If you buy the $100 set it will come with everything you need including the striker and hoses. The regulator will screw into the threads on modern bbq gas grill bottles.
 

Attachments

  • CAM00188.jpg
    CAM00188.jpg
    429 KB · Views: 235
  • CAM00187.jpg
    CAM00187.jpg
    376.1 KB · Views: 235
  • CAM00186.jpg
    CAM00186.jpg
    369.3 KB · Views: 235
That oxygen tank needs to be secured with chains to keep it from getting knocked over. I have seen with my own eyes the result of a high pressure tank getting knocked over and breaking the neck off. The tank took off like a rocket and penetrated a concrete block wall. I wasn't there when it happened at a scuba store I used to frequent, but I saw the hole afterwards.

Dave
 
True! When i use to be partners in a scrap yard years ago we would get in truck loads of old cylinders. We had them dumped in piles where they were dumped off the truck that were 20 ft high. I seen a track loader run over a bottle that was suppose to be empty! It took off like a torpedo with a whistling sound and went about 50 ft into the tree line bouncing off of pine trees. The first one it hit knocked a chunk out of it like you hit it with an axe! We got to looking and we pulled out 11 bottles that were full and somehow made it into the scrap. Luckily none got thrown into the shredder. If you look on the ladder you will see a bungy cord that is usually wrapped around the bottle and sticks in the holes you see in the tin to secure it when not in use. I took it off so i could unwrap the bottles for a picture. These bottle set outside of my old shop on the farm and i'm the only one who ever goes there anytime so i don't worry much about it, but you are correct, safety first!
 
FrugalRefiner said:
That oxygen tank needs to be secured with chains to keep it from getting knocked over. I have seen with my own eyes the result of a high pressure tank getting knocked over and breaking the neck off. The tank took off like a rocket and penetrated a concrete block wall. I wasn't there when it happened at a scuba store I used to frequent, but I saw the hole afterwards.

Dave

You got that right. Our local Kmart had a balloon helium tank regulator blow late one night, (luckily they were closed). It did $10,000 in damage inside the store. Went through shelves, knocked several over. The police, when responding to the burglar alarm from a smashed front window, found the tank in the street 300 yards away!
 
Palladium said:
Buying a used torch and regulators is like buying a pig in the poke! Chances are you will have to change out the o rings in the torch and have the regulators rebuilt. If you buy the $100 set it will come with everything you need including the striker and hoses. The regulator will screw into the threads on modern bbq gas grill bottles.
In that case new would be better but as much I'd love to buy it new for all the right reasons you listed and also because dirty cheap I can't because the US bottles have different threads then us, heck even between Germany, French, UK and Italy there are many differences. Great deal with the open market.

http://www.google.it/search?q=bombola+gpl

Even with the Italian oxyacetylene torch I will still have to adapt the gas thread but sure it will be easier then US models. Bad luck anyways.

With the model number, which I should have had already but it hasn't come in yet, I would be able to know if the torch can also go on propane (BBQ and domestic has bottles) or methane (city gas) and act accordingly.

With Kurt lesson I did start counting carbon bonds in gasses, methane seems to have no carbon bonds(?). Out of curiosity I will start looking for oxymethane setups, it might be even acceptable for melting palladium.

I also start believing that for my circumstances I should just get the methane line extended so I can hook a torch, incinerator or furnace that I will eventually have. Hopefully nothing wrong with methane, that would destroy my new castle.

Edit: great to know about risks of oxygen bottles, will surely lock it in place.

Marco
 
MarcoP said:
I also start believing that for my circumstances I should just get the methane line extended so I can hook a torch, incinerator or furnace that I will eventually have. Hopefully nothing wrong with methane, that would destroy my new castle.

Marco
Marco, I do hope Harold will see your post. I believe he used what we know as "natural gas", or "city gas" in his refinery. That refinery happened to be located in a castle he built. He may be able to provide some advice on the type of service you'll need to request from you gas provider.

Dave
 
Dave I really hope so, I also hope that it will be as simple as calling a certified specialist and let him place a tee in main line with any safety valve it may require, a couple of exits at the back and maybe run one line inside too and presto... that's what I call an easy job!

Marco
 
Back
Top