My Observations On Processes And Safety Issues From Others!

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This is my first time posting in this section of the forum, yet I feel it belongs right here.

For those that has gotten to know my user name and for those that have done business with with, hopefully you all can understand what I'm going to get off my chest. This is only to let everyone know (new or old members), that we're suppose to be here to help one another and then other. Period.

I have made a mistake last year by taking on the duty of refining keyboard mylars, and had not returned their silver in the time I said I would. That was my mistake and I'm still sorry about that. But I've seen that it has come to more than just that, or, for that reason alone, I feel others are taking on the "get-em" role.

Let me explain without trying to implement anyone.

a. Since I've been back on the forum, I've posted replies to other peoples' threads, and on some of them, I feel I've been attacked, mainly because of my delay to deliver the silver to others as promised, and not for simply what I posted.

Since I've been back on the forum, I posted that nitric acid IS used to clean gold powder when you're doing the cleaning process of it. I was was told that I need to stop telling people that because they're going to lose their gold. Not true.

Take any amount of gold powder, and then do a boiling wash with either 70% nitric or diluted nitric acid and that gold powder will NOT budge. If it does, then all of that powder was NOT gold. PERIOD. The procedure is even in a thread that is part of a tutorial here... on the forum. Look right here below:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=7093&start=80#p167168Recovering Black Powder from the Cell Read step 24, in particular. Again, I was told to stop telling people to use nitric acid to wash their gold powder because they'll lose their gold. If you lose gold because you used nitric acid to assist in the washing process, that was gold that wasn't gold. It's as simple as that. I actually washed my gold powder in concentrated nitric acid and it did nothing but make the gold powder turn into a cinnamon brown color. No loss of gold and not color change in the Nitric acid.

But, I've been told to not keep saying that to anyone on the forum because I'm going to cause them to lose their gold. If you believe that, then you do not need to be processing gold. Nitric Acid do NOT dissolve gold, especially at the washing stages of the gold powder.

I just I'm being told that the thread I posted above, the method is FLAWED (step 24). For me, step 24 is what makes my powder turn that light golden brown. I've tried drying my powder without the nitric, and other steps and the gold doesn't have that cinnamon brown. It always dry like instant coffee brown. I trust that method from kadriver and that is why it's still posted at the top of that page in the "Tutorial" section of the forum. Because it's trusted, tried, and very true.

======================

b. Making verbiage mistakes on the forum has cost me to have a member or few to (in my own opinion) attack me because what I said and didn't say, and not understanding what I meant and didn't mean, and plus I delayed other member's silver.

Example no#1. As stated above, I've been told to stop telling people to use nitric acid to wash their gold powder because they'll lose their gold. Don't believe that hype. Wash your gold with nitric, and if what you have is in fact gold, it'll be there after the wash. If it isn't there, then you never had gold there in the beginning. FACT!!!!

Example no#2. I made a post/reply in a thread about being out in the cold, and I made a mistake of saying the word "SAFE", as far as doing some things indoors. I feel like I was attacked then. I made a suggestion as to "ALTERNATIVE" solutions to use indoors.... not taking into consideration that the more experienced members would say "Yeah, under a fume hood, or well ventilated area". That didn't happen. I was slapped again in the face with the notion that I've been giving BAD and (or) (misleading information) in my post/reply.

Before I get to that, maybe my choice of words were incorrect, but we as family members here are to help one another, not blatantly post a reply that destructs your credibility. We're all here to help one another. If I make a mistake, let me know at least privately, and that way I can correct it. But to shame me in front of others (I know.. it wasn't your intention), but a pm could have made me realize ("Oh wow, let me go and correct that"). Posting things like misinforming people here on this forum directed to me is very serious, because we do a SERIOUS thing here.

But check this out...

Nitric Acid...... There are many, many, many threads here that tell how to use nitric acid and do NOT specifically say "DO NOT USE INDOORS" IF YOU DO, YOU MUST USE A FUME HOOD. OTHERWISE, USE OUTDOORS IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA AWAY FROM HUMANS AND OTHER LIVING BEINGS, INCLUDING PLANTS".

You don't see that posted with EVERY single post from EVERY single long time member here. Why not?

Because each member that has the ability to post and the the knowledge to post something so DANGEROUS, IS ASSUMING you read the "Safety" forum AND have read the "Disposal" Forum. I can name at least 99% of the members that even start a post DO NOT start by saying"

"DO NOT USE INDOORS" IF YOU DO, YOU MUST USE A FUME HOOD. OTHERWISE, USE OUTDOORS IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA AWAY FROM HUMANS AND OTHER LIVING BEINGS, INCLUDING PLANTS".

I have videos of a well respected member doing something that I've been told is DANGEROUS and NOT safe, yet, the videos live on.

Ammonia, bleach, sodium hydroxide, etc.
We all deal with one or even more of these chemicals on a DAILY basis, and we're still here. Common sense and due diligence has kept us this far. We use oven cleaners (sodium hydroxide) to clean our ovens... and guess what?... we still put food back in them. We use bleach, ammonia and other chemicals, and sometimes without gloves... guess what? we're still here. I'm NOT saying be stupid. I'm saying to do all you can to be safe.

We're more likely to die from carbon monoxide (vehicle emissions) along with other man made crap at the same level we are to be working with these dangerous chemicals. Aspirins, rubbing alcohol, isopropyl alcohol, Alka Seltza, Epsom Salt, etc... All of these things ARE DANGEROUS. The key is to use them wisely and safely. After that, it's faith that keeps you from the doom of them. Oh... But they're safe to be indoors.... but on the other hand, not not even safe for that use either, even to be used indoors.

I've seen threads of members talking about doing any process and NOT saying in their INTRODUCTION.....
"DO NOT USE INDOORS" IF YOU DO, YOU MUST USE A FUME HOOD. OTHERWISE, USE OUTDOORS IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA AWAY FROM HUMANS AND OTHER LIVING BEINGS, INCLUDING PLANTS".

But even though I've used the word "SAFE" in a thread/reply.... I made the biggest mistake. As I think about it, I should not have used the word "SAFE". I should have said it's safe to use indoors, as long as you have a fume hood, or proper ventilation.

I'll correct my wording whenever I give advice on the forum and I hope I'm helping others.

This is a very dangerous hobby/occupation or whatever you call it. I know that just one(1) mistake, and you're done/finished. I wouldn't want that to happen to anyone here or anywhere. I've learned so much from all of you, and I want to pass it on too, yet, I need and want you all to see me as a friend that made a mistake. At least I made attempts to correct them too. Ask the members!.

Let's help one another at all times, even when you feel like you don't want to. I would do it for you too.


Kevin
 
Personally, I feel that washing gold powder with nitric is unnecessary. It's my opinion that copper and anything else can be removed during other steps in the refining stream. There are a couple of instances where a hot nitric acid wash is recommended, like processing sweeps or during the initial recovery or inquarting. The precipitated powders from AR would need to be roasted before a nitric acid bath and then roasted again before the HCl wash so in this respect, it adds extra steps with more waste solutions to dispose of. I can't talk for other members but I would respond to your post like I would anyone else's. We never did business and I have no grudge against you. If you ask me public or private, I would tell you that nitric acid washes promotes value loss due to cross contamination and accidental dissolution of values. It may be a minuscule amount each time but over a long period of time, it will add up. Is it literal or made up? It is very literal. If you say it doesn't, don't let it hurt your feelings if someone calls you out about it.

I can see you are anxious. You are anxious to be back at it and that's good, being productive never hurts. I can also see you want to prove yourself. I would like to give you some advice, don't try so hard. You just got back on the board after some unpleasantness. Lay low and make good on things. Bide some time and let things smooth over and the sore spots heal. Being worked up like this puts everyone one on edge and your not doing yourself any favors.
 
What GEO said on all accounts testerman...
I was here before things went down and feel you need to prove yourself by not shoving in our face the fact that you are back and "doing good" on promises. Personally, you fell off the face of the earth when you vanished. Nothing, no statements to the press. No contact of any kind. Yet you have this new procedure all worked up and running during this same time period. That's why I'm shy of you and why you need to begin again here. Back off, let the comments fly and handle them as quietly and calmly as possible. It hurts, definately but it will happen and will pass.

You have learned and share quite openly and that's great.
Your nitric help I've read didn't sound right. You should have been told to include incineration to avoid any problems.
Working in doors should always include a warning. It's tough enough trying to make "newbies" understand the dangers. I've seen a couple few pictures of full lab set ups in the apartment with only a fan by the window...not good to say the least.

The best help I've been seeing is pointing to posts already on the subject in question. Restating the same answers really only adds to the mountain of posts here to learn from.

Any question of thought I have goes right into the search box and so far, all have been very easy to find and leads to answers not thought of as well as other pertinent information.

Good luck and just chill...

B.S.
 
Kevin,
Take a deep breath and relax.

No one is attacking you.

If the gold had seen chlorides ( and the gold has not been incinerated to drive off chlorides) the salt of previously used chloride with the gold, and then washing with nitric will cause lose to gold.


When we normally speak of washing gold that was dropped from a chloride solution, what you were talking about was gold that has not seen chlorides, basically two totally different processes.

Basically when we wash gold powder we do not use nitric acid.
What you were discussing was a different process.

The poster was right we do not Normally use nitric to wash the gold, and misunderstood what you were talking about, future readers reading your posts would also think washing gold in nitric acid would work, which most of the time would be a big mistake for them.

As far as safety, the warning not to use this chemistry in the home is sound advice, what may seem fairly safe can cause many problems or dangers, it is my opinion none of this should be done in your home no matter how safe it seems to you.

If I post something dangerous, misleading, wrong, or misinformation, I know others here will confront, and correct me, it happens many times, many times on open forum, and sometime I get a PM stating I said something wrong.

If it is a misunderstanding I try to clear it up, but most of the time it is a mistake I have made or something I did not understand correctly, which gives me a chance to learn from.

Either way I try to understand, what they are telling me, and try to correct my mistakes, and I appreciate my friends bringing my mistakes to my attention, yes sometimes it my be a bit embarrassing, to admit I make mistakes, but then I chuckle and try not to make another, I do not see it as an attack. But helping me and others which is what the forum is all about.

Nobody is attacking you.

But like every one else here, if you state something wrong or misleading you should expect to get confronted with a reply.

Sometimes it may be a misunderstanding, but at times, it will be that you need to look at what you stated, and take it like a man, and admit to making a mistake. either way the intentions of you, and the poster bringing it up should be in the best interest of the forum, and all of its members.
 
It's all pretty simple, and Butcher has addressed the situation nicely.

My comment(s)?

For starters, if you, or anyone, insists on detailing the use of nitric acid for washing gold, it should be made ABUNDANTLY clear that the recommended procedure is for gold that has been recovered from a gold stripping cell (or gold that has been inquarted and digested in nitric), NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH GOLD THAT HAS BEEN PRECIPITATED FROM A CHLORIDE SOLUTION. Such gold will, indeed, be dissolved if one uses nitric, as, in spite of careful rinsing, all of the chlorides won't be eliminated.

It would be my opinion that the most critical operation that might be conducted on the recovered black gold powder would be to incinerate. That eliminates all manner of contamination that can be troublesome, but I see no mention included.

Treat readers with respect, and allow them to adjust to your new mode of operation. And, remember, respect must be earned. Demanding respect is unlikely to be successful.

If readers post a correction to something you have posted, make damned sure you're talking about the right thing, and make your point clearly, without attacking others, and without trying to lead them. If your point is valid, it will be considered, and most likely accepted. If it stinks, you're likely to hear that it does (although politely, not with rudeness). That's how this board should operate, so readers don't get lead down the wrong path.

Get off the campaign of demanding gold be washed with nitric. It's too confusing to those who may not understand.

I expect that this matter is going to come to an immediate end. (And it will, trust me!) It has become unsettling for the well being of the board. Drop it, and get on with refining.

Harold
 
Geo said:
I can see you are anxious. You are anxious to be back at it and that's good, being productive never hurts. I can also see you want to prove yourself. I would like to give you some advice, don't try so hard. You just got back on the board after some unpleasantness. Lay low and make good on things. Bide some time and let things smooth over and the sore spots heal. Being worked up like this puts everyone one on edge and your not doing yourself any favors.

Very well said Geo :!:

you took the words right out of my mouth

Kurt
 
I'm completely with Geo too. Great post. Can I also please add that the whole public self flagellation and approval seeking process is really beginning to bore me. Just get on with it.

Jon
 
testerman said:
Example no#2. I made a post/reply in a thread about being out in the cold, and I made a mistake of saying the word "SAFE", as far as doing some things indoors. I feel like I was attacked then. I made a suggestion as to "ALTERNATIVE" solutions to use indoors.... not taking into consideration that the more experienced members would say "Yeah, under a fume hood, or well ventilated area". That didn't happen. I was slapped again in the face with the notion that I've been giving BAD and (or) (misleading information) in my post/reply.


Kevin

Kevin

I am the poster you refer to here in Example no#2 - so I naturally feel the need to respond

In no way Kevin is what I posted here in this thread :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=6593#p221452 meant as a personal attack on you &/or a slap in your face --- I was simply pointing out that what you are/were suggesting &/or at least the way you were wording it was bad advise &/or at the very least could lead new members that have no clue to believe that something is safe when in fact it is not (which is why I posted it on the open forum)

If you look back on my posting history you will see that I respond in like kind any time anyone suggest that a method &/or chemical to do this is safe to do in the house --- the internet is full of such misinformation & it all to often comes here from out there & when it does we (not just me) try to correct it for the misinformation that it is - that is how we keep this forum not only the best source of information on recovery & refining PMs - but also the most responsible source of information

You are right - not every post posted about doing this has a warning to go with it --- but every new member is now (because of problems of trying to just answer their questions in the past) told they must do three things before they start posting & asking questions (1) down load & read Hokes book & to read it till they understand the basics written within (2) spend time reading & researching the forum - and (3) most important read/study about the dangers involved & what needs to be done to work safe

Kevin - I hold no ill will against you for your past mistakes & in fact have a good deal of respect for the way you are making such an effort to restore of past wrongs --- or as I posted here :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=21438&p=221239#p221239 - I still stand by those words

Kurt
 
I'm the other guy he's speaking of. I'm not fixing to play this game myself. Divide and conquer is not a game you really want to play with me and your disruption to the board has been noticed by far more than me. Harold and Geo have already addressed your issues so i will just sit back in the shadows and wait. Make no mistake! I'm not one of your fans and you would be best served not to kick at the cat again. You can call it what you want, but i waited and judged how you would react given the situation and instead of being humble you chose confrontation. We will see where you heart is at given time.
 
I would agree, Ralph. I'm not one of his fans either.

By the way, I've been leaching gold powder with nitric (and hot tap water and ammonia and hot distilled water) for about 40 years. You won't dissolve gold if your sequence of rinsing, etc., is correct. I've also been using stannous chloride constantly for at least the same amount of time. I lose nothing and I'll put my first precipitation melts up against anyone's. When I sold, my gold was always accepted, visually, as pure gold. I owe a lot of that to nitric.

Nitric is my favorite acid. For our purposes, it's almost a universal solvent. It's a strong oxidizer, unlike HCL and H2SO4 (except when hot and concentrated).
 
You are correct Chris. So is he and also Harold as well as I. It's all according to the process to which you are applying it. We all have tricks and tips we use in processing, but he tends to make blanket statements that when read by the not so experienced refiner could lead to issues.

54 post in 10 days on god knows how many topics.
Butcher our most active board member has 7302 post which he had to really work to catch up with the rest of us. His average is 2.9 post per day average. Yours is on track for 5.4

I remember when he was here before i gave him a lot of advice. That's what sticks in my craw. Then he offered up a piece offering which i thought " Hey! Who am i to judge? " Then greed seemed to have crept into that situation and then all the sudden he's cornered the market on silver mylars! Then after that he really lost it with that outburst where he got real negative with a member when he didn't want to hear anything negative said about him. That could have been handled a whole lot differently. If I'm a customer of yours and i call you with something i might have questions on, or that i might not agree with you on, is that how you're going to treat me? I didn't a thread awhile back on the most important aspect of this business. Do you know what that thread was on? HONESTY! It's your most important marketability in this business. You sir have lost that! Maybe you think this excuse or that excuse is valid. Though you may have my understanding and sympathy, and you do to some extent, it still changes absolutely nothing! This is business and what you have is personal. Now that may seem harsh, but it's the reality in the world of precious metals. You seem to be more prideful of a person than humble. Lot of folks here have given you some very good advice on what you should do and it's not refining! I want put my foot on your throat as long as you don't put your finger in my face. Slow down, chill out.
 
Personally I thought the statements about using acids indoors was out of line. If you don't know for sure whether to use a given acid in a hood or use other appropriate ventilation it's a recipe for failure. Doing these types of reactions you MUST know before hand all safety precautions. Nobody deserves to pay for one's stupidity but the one.
 
goldsilverpro said:
By the way, I've been leaching gold powder with nitric (and hot tap water and ammonia and hot distilled water) for about 40 years. You won't dissolve gold if your sequence of rinsing, etc., is correct.
The problem with that procedure is that there is risk of dissolving gold, and those who hope to learn about refining may or may not understand the reasons why some of their gold is going back in to solution. It's not as simple as it may appear, for when enough gold is precipitated from a large batch, where concentration levels may be high, drag-down of pregnant solution is very much a part of why one might think they are dissolving their gold.

For that reason, the commonly accepted wash of HCl has been promoted, and for very good reason, as gold that has been precipitated from a chloride solution will not dissolve when washed accordingly. If traces of gold chloride are found to exist in the wash, there's no reason to suspect any dissolution, but it does present evidence of some gold not having been precipitated.

On this topic I speak from experience, as that was an occurrence I experienced on a few occasions. Had I been washing with nitric, I wouldn't have known the reason.

Please note that I understand and appreciate the fact that nitric is a good solvent, and has the potential to improve the quality of precipitated gold, but my experiences dictated that I could achieve better than 9995 quality without risking dissolving. That has to have value for those who are in the learning stage, and even more value for those who are unable to buy nitric at a reasonable price.

Harold
 
Smack said:
Personally I thought the statements about using acids indoors was out of line. If you don't know for sure whether to use a given acid in a hood or use other appropriate ventilation it's a recipe for failure. Doing these types of reactions you MUST know before hand all safety precautions. Nobody deserves to pay for one's stupidity but the one.

I totally agree - you can try to fix it (stupidity) by saying something - if not - at least hope to prevent passing it on !

Kurt
 
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