Refiner in the UK - VAT

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Woah, Woah, Woah!!!

Sorry to resurrect an old post, but where are you going to get 90% for a 5oz 50%+ pure ingot??? We offer the general public 95.5% for normal scrap.

I am not trying to sell my services, but am just giving you my rates to give an idea of what rates you should be asking for...

If you are a trade customer, (doesn't matter if you are vat registered or not), we pay between 97% and 98% (dependent on turnover) for scrap as we have to melt and assay it in house. We don't charge to melt or XRF assay. Having said this, you will soon need to be VAT registered, as it doesn't take much to go over the VAT threshold.

If you are selling an assayed bar to us (assayed by London, Birmingham, Edinburgh or Sheffield assay offices, then we buy live at 98%.
 
Hi Kerry

It's never good when that happens is it? I've had a couple of similar experiences myself but I won't name them publicly! You just need to deal with someone who can get references from other forum members and you'll be good. Which part of the UK are you based?
 
I can supply several people I would trust but please explain the reason you feel ripped off...
With dental scrap there can be more platinum group metals or base metal alloys than gold, explain what you had and how you know you were ripped off, maybe you weren't but we can only know by what you tell us, we don't believe in calling foul unless it's provable... Yes there are crooks out there but there are many honest guys too.
 
Kez1975 said:
Really sorry guys, I had no idea that anybody had replied.

Well I won't go into it too much but there was a lot of discrepancy in the weights that were relayed back to us from the "non-destructive" analysis results that the company offered. It really didn't add up at all and when I insisted on my materials being sent back to me I was told that it was too late as my scrap had been smelted which completely went against the purpose of their so called non-destructive analysis. (In the unlikely event that I wasn't happy with my valuation, my materials would be returned to me they said)

Any recommendations would be very much appreciated.
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If you have your agreement in righting it would be a simple case of obtaining goods through deception.
If it is a he said she said case you would not have much joy.
 
Was the material yellow or was it white? If white, the odds are pretty good that there were no precious metals in it, although there are many exceptions. If yellow, it was definitely a gold alloy.
 
Kez1975 said:
Really sorry guys, I had no idea that anybody had replied.

Well I won't go into it too much but there was a lot of discrepancy in the weights that were relayed back to us from the "non-destructive" analysis results that the company offered. It really didn't add up at all and when I insisted on my materials being sent back to me I was told that it was too late as my scrap had been smelted which completely went against the purpose of their so called non-destructive analysis. (In the unlikely event that I wasn't happy with my valuation, my materials would be returned to me they said)

Any recommendations would be very much appreciated.
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Good heavens that's the oldest trick in the book. I didn't think anyone was dumb enough to try that old chestnut any more.
 
Kez1975 said:
justinhcase said:
Kez1975 said:
Really sorry guys, I had no idea that anybody had replied.

Well I won't go into it too much but there was a lot of discrepancy in the weights that were relayed back to us from the "non-destructive" analysis results that the company offered. It really didn't add up at all and when I insisted on my materials being sent back to me I was told that it was too late as my scrap had been smelted which completely went against the purpose of their so called non-destructive analysis. (In the unlikely event that I wasn't happy with my valuation, my materials would be returned to me they said)

Any recommendations would be very much appreciated.
Click to expand...
If you have your agreement in righting it would be a simple case of obtaining goods through deception.
If it is a he said she said case you would not have much joy.
Click to expand...

Foolish of me but no, there was no agreement in writing. : (
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A good thing to do would be to homogenize your lot keep some drill samples ,then split it in two and always use two services.
It will probable cost you a bit extra on processing charges but it keeps you fairly well covered.
What kind of operation takes on a kilo of material from you and douse not provide you with an acceptable contract.no contract or one that is two convoluted should raise the red flags.
J
 
This is the problem with selling scrap that you can't quantify, virtually every company you approach will not offer a contract on an unknown value for their own safety, so they do not overpay or could be accused of stealing from you, there are honest dealers and refiners who are happy to make their profit at a reasonable rate and not rip off their customers but it takes some time to find them or you need to melt and assay the scrap, I believe the Assay Offices especially Sheffield offer this service so it may pay to contact them and get your next parcel into a known form,ie a bar which is stamped with their number and an assay certificate to accompany it so you can trade the resultant bar as is without need of any further assays.
 
nickvc said:
This is the problem with selling scrap that you can't quantify, virtually every company you approach will not offer a contract on an unknown value for their own safety, so they do not overpay or could be accused of stealing from you, there are honest dealers and refiners who are happy to make their profit at a reasonable rate and not rip off their customers but it takes some time to find them or you need to melt and assay the scrap, I believe the Assay Offices especially Sheffield offer this service so it may pay to contact them and get your next parcel into a known form,ie a bar which is stamped with their number and an assay certificate to accompany it so you can trade the resultant bar as is without need of any further assays.
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An agreement need not specify a return.it should state at what point the ownership of the item or lot is transferred.e.g. once an offer has been accepted.
I agree from his description the lot sounded like it needed considerable work before a good valuation would have been possible.
But if the agreement was for him to have an opportunity to consider there offer before the point of no return that is what should have happened.
It might be a good use of time to take a hammer and smash off all the porcelain before he sent of material,the less time they have to take the better returns you usually get.
 
Justin the point is the refiner/buyer would have melted the lot to get an assay, the seller should have had the opportunity to have the bar returned after the melt and offer, if the bar was already gone then it certainly sounds as if the deal was shady, to be blunt its not easy to create an exact same bar especially when it's mixed values, when I worked for JM many years ago we had receipts with the option of melt, assay and offer and no bar was ever shipped until it was purchased or the customer took back their material.
I agree the seller should spend a little time removing the ceramics and plastics and then follow my advice and either melt it himself or ship it to an Assay Office for a melt and assay, the only other none destructive way of getting an idea of value is to xrf the individual pieces to get a rough value before a melt and assay to confirm the exact value.
The moral is in GSPs tag line, the refiner is the last liar, but you can protect yourself by following some simple steps as outlined above.
 
They will melt and assay any amount as long as your willing to pay the charges.
Once you have a bar with a trusted assay you can phone any refiner, be aware the presence of Pd can put some refiners and dealers off but someone will make a reasonable offer.
No they are not refiners or dealers but there are plenty out there, if you get stuck send me a PM and I'll give you a few names but you will have to sort the deal.
 
Dental material is unique in it's composition. It has precious metals mixed with high temperature melting metals, (Ni, Pt) as well as some low temperature melting metals. As a result, proper fluxing and often cutting the melt with copper is required to get a homogeneous sample.

Discuss this with your refiner or the assay office because getting a representative sample is everything. Or put another way, without it the results mean nothing.
 
If you can get a small sample melted as a bar together I can give you an xrf analysis on it. That's completely non destructive and you get your material back.

Yes XRF has its own issues, many of which can be offset by correct usage but it would certainly point you in the right direction.

Edit for grammar.
 
The issue with dental material is the bar can layer, as can the sample, due to the different melting points of the metals in the mix. This can result in a sample that reads one number on one side and another on the back side.

If that is the case XRF or fire assay share the same limitations.
 
The best way is to learn to refine your material your self.
I use to have to trek up to London once or twice a year.
Get a B&B before going to a dealer.
They are good over here as they would let me watch them produce my ruff bar.
After samples where drilled I would seal the bar up with my own seals and spend a night in the big Smoke.
The next day I would either accept there offer or pay them for there time.
If the seal was broken they knew I would kick up such a stink with the Fraud Squad that there body waste would be audited for the next decade.
Much better now I can get all my odds and end's into a bar that is bought with out assay as 999.
And having some understanding of the principles also leaves you in a much better position to trade out that which is beyond you capability's to recover.
Thank you Ms Hoke , Harold.4Metals,Lou,FrugalRefiner and there rest of the usual suspects.
 
I know Sheffield will take samples from the molten metal with dip tubes so hopefully you get a true assay...
 
This document was published by Metalor to advise their collectors on melting dental to obtain a representative sample.

Notice they do not suggest sampling by pin dip.


Dental Lots: Customer Sampling Aids

The toughest material to sample is dental material, especially if the customer is mixing different dental alloys.
Why: Dental alloys vary widely in the metals contained and many of these metals are considered deleterious because of their wide range of melting points and their resistance to forming a homogeneous mix needed for properly sampling.
What metals cause problems when melted together in a dental melt?
Gallium – low melting point
Tin – low melting point
Indium – low melting point
Chromium – Extremely high melting point.
Nickel – Extremely high melting point.
Platinum and Palladium – high melting point.
Why can’t you take a pin sample of a dental melt? Because of the large difference in melting points of the metals involved (see group above), the pin will solidify with the low melting metals concentrated at the ends and the higher melting point metals solidify towards the middle. The assay for Au, Ag, Pt and Pd will vary greatly dependent on which part of the pin you sample. In fact, the most common complaint I get concerns the sampling of dental lots where the customer has taken a pin. They usually cut off the ends of the pins and take a sample from the middle and they come with very high gold and palladium assays.
When we receive the melt, we add copper to dilute the effect of the different melting points of the metals involved (average out the melting point of the entire lot) and then pour into grain and sample the grain. Our grain samples are very homogeneous. We usually agree with the customer on the silver and platinum but not on the gold and palladium.
Why can’t you take a drill sample of a dental melt? For actually the same reasons. When you pour the bar, the different metals solidify at different rates as they cool and the bars contain high and low concentrations of the precious metals. When you look at a bar and it contains a lot of different colors, you can be assured that the bar is not homogenous. A homogenous bar will be very similar in color and texture throughout the bar because you have something that is closer to an alloy. The best example of an alloy that you can readily see is your wedding or some other ring that has the same color and texture throughout.
So, where ever the bar is drilled, it will give a different assay than another drill sample on the bar. Hence, when we get a dental scrap bar, we add copper and take a grain sample.
So, what can the customer do so that he does not over or under pay his dental customers?
Here is how you advise the customer to sample his dental material:
1. Pull out all ceramics prior to melting (using a hammer to break the ceramics if needed).
2. Advise him to add 25% copper to the melt.
3. Have him pour the entire lot into cold water onto a flat board just at the point where the board and top of the water level meet. (pour quickly and steadily)
4. The material should form “grain”.
5. Take several of the cleaner (no slag) and flatter grains. Pound flat and run on xrf (several grains).
6. If the results on the xrf are close, dry the grain and ship to Metalor.
7. If the results show much variation (basis the weight of the lot), add an additional 25% copper and repeat the process until the grains shows only a slight variation on the xrf
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