using AP method for gold filled

Started the AP process on some gold filled scrap on the 15, April 17 and it's been working like a charm! No idea as to what ratio of gold filled it is though, but I started off with a mixture of 1/4 cup of Hcl and 1/8 cup of H2o2 just barely covering the 44g of thin gold filled scrap, covered it loosely with the jar lid and let it go to work. I stirred and agitated it a few times a day, adding a tbsp of hydrogen peroxide daily to get the mix back to a dark emerald green, taking notes as I went along. Within a few days I noticed tiny, tiny bits of gold floating in the mixture as well as the mix being very dark (like dark coffee) as well as a grayish type of sediment settling at the bottom. I'd also put the glass jar on a hot plate set to "low" using a small, shallow pan filled with damp sand so the jar wouldn't be heated directly by the hot plate. I'd let it warm till I started seeing light "steam" then turn it off and stir it quite a few times. I also would add a tbsp of Hcl on occasion, but from what I've read on here I tried to keep the mix fueled with fresh H2o2 to keep it close to an emerald green. The gold seems to be separating surprisingly well, but there's a very good amount of the gray sediment mixed in with it and the gold particles are too small to be able to use the strainers I have. I decided to filter some of it using a coffee filter and small funnel, but even after a dozen washes using Hcl, warm Hcl, water, and boiling water the gray sediment remains. Finally I folded up the filter and incinerated it in a crucible (partly out of frustration and also out of curiosity) and then put the charred leavings in a small jar for later. Is this sediment silver? Or do I need to add more Hcl to disolve it? I've still got a few days left till my gold filled scrap is done soaking and I want to be able to get as much clean gold as possible. Worst case scenario I'll just end up having a bunch of coffee filters with the gold and sludge mixed in I suppose. I've seen videos and read about people who disolve their gold, filters and all into a Hcl/Cl mix then precipitate. This being only my 2nd attempt at this process, would it be possible to dissolve my filters the same way even though it has that gray sludge mixed with the gold? If it's tin it should be washed out by the Hcl, right? I picked up some amazing info through this forum and Hoke's book and need to read it again obviously, but feel as if I'm missing something. Also, the current batch of GF I'm doing stays quite dark even after adding H2o2. Any ideas or pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone! Much love!

Sulphuric? Hot sulphuric?

Not to sound harsh, but I wouldn't recommend strong sulfuric to someone that is just getting started, and that would go double about using it hot. That stuff is dangerous and even more so when heated.

Gold filled in AP isn't the best choice but if you do it that way, you almost have to use a large volume of it for it to work reasonably well. Also find yourself an air pump. The kind used in fish aquariums will work for small batch's. If that is a quart jar your using, you need a bigger container. The air pump will also cause tiny droplets to fly up and out of a small container. I would use a five gallon bucket with a lid with a small air hole so it doesn't build up pressure. Think about a minimum of 1/2 gallon of AP. Much less and it mucks up pretty quick. Maybe even put a smaller container of AP inside the bigger bucket.

While that is slowly working, try reading up on the methods and when to use them. the only time I ran gold filled in AP I dropped a small handful of rings in 4 gallons of AP and left them for three month's before checking on them again. That really didn't give me much in the way of learning how quick it will work.

While this isn't using gold filled you can see the use of an air pump on fingers. This was videoed after 24 hours in a 1500Ml glass container. Using the same air pump in the four gallon AP bucket isn't as fast.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poyeAtx1o9c[/youtube]

You are way over using the peroxide, remember it is an oxidiser, and it will dissolve gold.
While never having used AP I believe that you add more HCl to keep it working once you have base metals in solution so make sure to test your solutions.

Hydrogen peroxide will not only oxidize Cu(I) into Cu(II) but also tin(II) chloride into higher oxidation state. I think a lot of that gray gunk is tin in various states of oxides and hydroxides.

Göran

Thanks fellas! From what I've read some people seem to add more peroxide as they go along and some add more Hcl. I'll take another step back and let it do its thing for the coming week. Wish I could take a better picture for you guys. There's quite a bit of gold floating in the mixture after just 6 days now, but it's tiny particles. I'll keep looking for more threads on the matter. Stumbled across a pdf by lazersteve and a few others from this very forum discussing the process so I downloaded it. Thanks again guys. I'll post an update soon hopefully!

True gold filled is a "biscuit" of gold over silver. Silver is used so that when the gold does wear through, the silver will not stain the skin green. As with any other PM bearing material, there are other metals involved but true "gold filled" will be gold over silver. If it is gold over copper, it is not gold filled. It can have other names such as RGP or HGE but it is not gold filled. AP should not effect the silver biscuit by much if at all. AP will not remove the silver from the gold. You will still have to deal with the silver.

I had the understanding that goldfilled, was gold that is filled with base metal. Even copper.

They used silver for the base metal during the war time when copper was restricted, and silver was then only seen as a monetary metal, not industrial one. Goldfilled can be on copper, stainless, silver, whatever. It is goldfilled when it is 1/20th the weight or more in gold (also 1/10, 1/5th). They still use silver as the core for the "higher end" goldfilled stuff. But if its marked gf, or goldfilled, it IS 1/20. If it is a higher ratio, it will be marked as such.

Rgp is either 1/30 or 1/40 total weight in gold
HGE is even less

Mrs Hoke covered that in her testing book.

Gold filled is still gold over silver today.

Yes, but goldfilled isnt exclusively over silver.
Just because it is gold over stainless or copper, doesn't mean it isnt goldfilled. It's still goldfilled.

Are you confusing gold filled with vermeil? Vermeil is specifically gold plating over silver. Most gold filled I see is bonded to brass for the color similarity.

Edit: Ah, from the Wikipedia article on gold-filled jewelry: "Some products are made using sterling silver as the base, although this more expensive version is not common today."

Gold filled or as we call it on our side of the pond rolled gold is exactly as our term suggests, it's a layer of a karat alloy over base metal, usually it's heat bonded as a solid block and rolled or a base metal wire is inserted into a karat alloy tube and drawn down, silver may well be in the gold alloy but it is not the base to the karat layer, that is termed gold over silver a totally different product.

I spent many years making jewelry from 1/20-12K gold filled wire. The base metal was a brass alloy so that when the gold wore off it was similar in color. The FTC provides the definitions used for precious metals in the U.S.

As used in these guides, the term quality mark means any letter, figure, numeral, symbol, sign, word, or term, or any combination thereof, that has been stamped, embossed, inscribed, or otherwise placed on any industry product and which indicates or suggests that any such product is composed throughout of any precious metal or any precious metal alloy or has a surface or surfaces on which there has been plated or deposited any precious metal or precious metal alloy. Included are the words “gold,” “karat,” “carat,” “silver,” “sterling,” “vermeil,” “platinum,” “iridium,” “palladium,” “ruthenium,” “rhodium,” or “osmium,” or any abbreviations thereof, whether used alone or in conjunction with the words “filled,” “plated,” “overlay,” or “electroplated,” or any abbreviations thereof. Quality markings include those in which the words or terms “gold,” “karat,” “silver,” “vermeil,” “platinum” (or platinum group metals), or their abbreviations are included, either separately or as suffixes, prefixes, or syllables.

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§23.5 Misuse of the word “vermeil.“
(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that an industry product is “vermeil” if such mark or description misrepresents the product’s true composition.
(b) An industry product may be described or marked as “vermeil” if it consists of a base of sterling silver coated or plated on all significant surfaces with gold, or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness, that is of substantial thickness7and a minimum thickness throughout equivalent to two and one half (2 1/2) microns (or approximately 100/1,000,000ths of an inch) of fine gold.
Note 1 to §23.5:It is unfair or deceptive to use the term “vermeil” to describe a product in which the sterling silver has been covered with a base metal (such as nickel) plated with gold unless there is a disclosure that the sterling silver is covered with a base metal that is plated with gold.
Note 2 to §23.5:Exemptions recognized in the assay of gold filled, gold overlay, and rolled gold plate industry products are listed in the appendix.

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Gold Filled, Gold Overlay, Rolled Gold Plate
•(5) Use of the terms “Gold Filled,” “Rolled Gold Plate,” “Rolled Gold Plated,” “Gold Overlay,” or any abbreviation to describe all or part of an industry product unless such product or part contains a surface-plating of gold alloy applied by a mechanical process and of such thickness and extent of surface coverage that reasonable durability is assured, and unless the term is immediately preceded by a correct designation of the karat fineness of the alloy that is of at least equal conspicuousness as the term used.

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(3) An industry product or part thereof on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces by soldering, brazing, welding, or other mechanical means, a plating of gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness and of substantial thickness may be marked or described as “Gold Filled,” “Gold Overlay,” “Rolled Gold Plate” or an adequate abbreviation, when such plating constitutes at least 1/20th of the weight of the metal in the entire article and when the term is immediately preceded by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (for example, “14 Karat Gold Filled,” “14 Kt. Gold Filled,” “14 Kt. G.F.,” “14 Kt. Gold Overlay,” or “14K. R.G.P.”).
When conforming to all such requirements except the specified minimum of 1/20th of the weight of the metal in the entire article, the terms “Gold Overlay” and “Rolled Gold Plate” may be used when the karat fineness designation is immediately preceded by a fraction accurately disclosing the portion of the weight of the metal in the entire article accounted for by the plating, and when such fraction is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (for example, “1/40th 12 Kt. Rolled Gold Plate” or “1/40 12 Kt. R.G.P.”).

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I've done a fair amount of snipping to try to keep this manageable. I'm attaching the original document I'm quoting. I believe I found this on the Jewelers Vigilance Committee's web site.
Dave

Finally!!! Got a little something to show for my efforts. I attached a pic of the filled stuff I was given to play with. He said it was filled so that's all I had to go by. He does own and run a lapidary shop and is extremely knowledgeable in that area, so maybe it's filled...??? Lol

FrugalRefiner said:

I spent many years making jewelry from 1/20-12K gold filled wire. The base metal was a brass alloy so that when the gold wore off it was similar in color. The FTC provides the definitions used for precious metals in the U.S.

As used in these guides, the term quality mark means any letter, figure, numeral, symbol, sign, word, or term, or any combination thereof, that has been stamped, embossed, inscribed, or otherwise placed on any industry product and which indicates or suggests that any such product is composed throughout of any precious metal or any precious metal alloy or has a surface or surfaces on which there has been plated or deposited any precious metal or precious metal alloy. Included are the words “gold,” “karat,” “carat,” “silver,” “sterling,” “vermeil,” “platinum,” “iridium,” “palladium,” “ruthenium,” “rhodium,” or “osmium,” or any abbreviations thereof, whether used alone or in conjunction with the words “filled,” “plated,” “overlay,” or “electroplated,” or any abbreviations thereof. Quality markings include those in which the words or terms “gold,” “karat,” “silver,” “vermeil,” “platinum” (or platinum group metals), or their abbreviations are included, either separately or as suffixes, prefixes, or syllables.

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§23.5 Misuse of the word “vermeil.“
(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that an industry product is “vermeil” if such mark or description misrepresents the product’s true composition.
(b) An industry product may be described or marked as “vermeil” if it consists of a base of sterling silver coated or plated on all significant surfaces with gold, or gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness, that is of substantial thickness7and a minimum thickness throughout equivalent to two and one half (2 1/2) microns (or approximately 100/1,000,000ths of an inch) of fine gold.
Note 1 to §23.5:It is unfair or deceptive to use the term “vermeil” to describe a product in which the sterling silver has been covered with a base metal (such as nickel) plated with gold unless there is a disclosure that the sterling silver is covered with a base metal that is plated with gold.
Note 2 to §23.5:Exemptions recognized in the assay of gold filled, gold overlay, and rolled gold plate industry products are listed in the appendix.

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Gold Filled, Gold Overlay, Rolled Gold Plate
•(5) Use of the terms “Gold Filled,” “Rolled Gold Plate,” “Rolled Gold Plated,” “Gold Overlay,” or any abbreviation to describe all or part of an industry product unless such product or part contains a surface-plating of gold alloy applied by a mechanical process and of such thickness and extent of surface coverage that reasonable durability is assured, and unless the term is immediately preceded by a correct designation of the karat fineness of the alloy that is of at least equal conspicuousness as the term used.

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(3) An industry product or part thereof on which there has been affixed on all significant surfaces by soldering, brazing, welding, or other mechanical means, a plating of gold alloy of not less than 10 karat fineness and of substantial thickness may be marked or described as “Gold Filled,” “Gold Overlay,” “Rolled Gold Plate” or an adequate abbreviation, when such plating constitutes at least 1/20th of the weight of the metal in the entire article and when the term is immediately preceded by a designation of the karat fineness of the plating which is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (for example, “14 Karat Gold Filled,” “14 Kt. Gold Filled,” “14 Kt. G.F.,” “14 Kt. Gold Overlay,” or “14K. R.G.P.”).
When conforming to all such requirements except the specified minimum of 1/20th of the weight of the metal in the entire article, the terms “Gold Overlay” and “Rolled Gold Plate” may be used when the karat fineness designation is immediately preceded by a fraction accurately disclosing the portion of the weight of the metal in the entire article accounted for by the plating, and when such fraction is of equal conspicuousness as the term used (for example, “1/40th 12 Kt. Rolled Gold Plate” or “1/40 12 Kt. R.G.P.”).

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I've done a fair amount of snipping to try to keep this manageable. I'm attaching the original document I'm quoting. I believe I found this on the Jewelers Vigilance Committee's web site.
Dave

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:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

Here's the gold filled stuff as of now. In AP, with bubbler, 8 days into the process.

Thanks for the ridiculously immense amount of info guys! I just incinerated my filters and am about to wash the leftovers with hot Hcl then wash. This is my first time attempting the Hcl/Cl method so wish me luck! Doing it outside, gloves, ventilator, goggles, rabbits foot, hopes and dreams, and patience. If anyone wants to chime in and give pointers or constructive criticism, feel free.

I apologize about creating a disturbance. I am old fashioned and use the terms given when I was in my twenties. From the time I knew what gold filled was, I only acted on material that was gold over silver. Anything else was considered fake even by gold filled standards. The wiki example is pretty much the philosophy I went by where only vintage gold filled was true gold filled. The industry has changed and they have obviously lowered their standards quite a bit. I don't mean to say that it is wrong or that anyone else is wrong. I didn't even mean to say that only gold over silver was the only true gold filled, but in my opinion, it is the only thing I will accept as true gold filled. It must be marked 1/20 14KGF or similar marking. Just 14KGF or GF is not a true mark denoting gold filled. It must have content and Karat before I accept it as true gold filled.

Gold especially finely divided, can go up in a chloride cloud of smoke (salts of copper chloride, sodium chloride)...