Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

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philddreamer
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby philddreamer » July 31st, 2015, 10:19 am

Very Cool Phil . Kurt

Thank you, Kurt!

GSP wrote:
Nice setup, Phil.

Thank you, Chris!
I did covered the tank with a plastic bag and tied a strap to seal it from the air. It's hot and dry, so a feel moisture shouldn't affect much... I hope!
Thanks for the etching details!!! I'll keep a close eye on the matter.
I'm working on a tumbler, and hope to have it up and running soon. What is the recommended R.P.M's. for the tumbler!?
During the 2.75 hr. test run, the temp stayed below 75 degrees.
I'll be looking into the masking wax.
I'm already looking for some chain!!! :mrgreen:
Concerning the possible etching discussed in my previous post, I just thought of something else. You could reinforce the steel at the solution level by welding strips of steel sheet all around the inside of the tank. I'm thinking strips about 1/8" thick X 1" wide, centered at the solution level.

I'm already planning building another tank in the near future, and that will be considered. When I clean this one, I'll add some strips.
Thanks againg, Chris!

spaceships wrote:
Smack I am totally with you on this. I'm jealous- my welding looks like ratsh*t.....

Practice, practice, practice!!! 8)

I thank you all for your interest and expert advice!!! 8)

Phil
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby goldsilverpro » July 31st, 2015, 10:30 am

You don't want the tumbler turning too fast. Maybe about 5 RPM.
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby philddreamer » July 31st, 2015, 10:36 am

Thank you, Chris!

What would be the recommended length of the chain?
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The difference between a dream & reality is, a good plan!
WARNING: No "cartridge type" respirator will filter out nitric fumes, NONE!!!

spaceships

Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby spaceships » July 31st, 2015, 7:14 pm

g_axelsson wrote:
spaceships wrote:
goldsilverpro wrote:Concerning the possible etching discussed in my previous post, I just thought of something else. You could reinforce the steel at the solution level by welding strips of steel sheet all around the inside of the tank. I'm thinking strips about 1/8" thick X 1" wide, centered at the solution level.


The same theory as sacrificial anodes on the hull of a warship Chris right?

No, no electrochemical potential here, just making the metal thicker so it would last longer.

Göran


You're right Goran clumsy wording on my part. But think around it, what if you could put something on there that effectively took the erosion preferentially over the chassis itself?

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby g_axelsson » August 1st, 2015, 4:40 am

I don't think sacrificial anodes inside the sulfuric acid would work. To be working it would have to be active and not passivated by the acid and anything that could be dissolved would go quickly in the acid.

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby philddreamer » August 3rd, 2015, 6:54 pm

Some pic's showing the progress on the tumbler!

Phil
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WARNING: No "cartridge type" respirator will filter out nitric fumes, NONE!!!

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby jason_recliner » August 3rd, 2015, 10:33 pm

Looks great. Just an idea for your upcoming patent:
Assuming the lower lip of the colander is below acid level, consider the design idea for some very small angled plastic blades - an impeller of sorts - to help ensure acid in the bowl is continuously replaced. By gently pulling fresh acid in the top, dissolved/powdered gold would flow out the holes more readily.
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby philddreamer » August 3rd, 2015, 10:54 pm

Thanks for the tip, Jason!
There's always fresh acid, as I turn the tumbler...

I also need to tack weld most of the links in the chain, except the bottom one, so it can make better contact.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value --- zero." Voltaire (1694-1778)
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WARNING: No "cartridge type" respirator will filter out nitric fumes, NONE!!!

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby Smack » August 3rd, 2015, 11:42 pm

That stainless chain Phil? Or is it zinc plated? Or maybe just plain, can't tell in the pictures.
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby philddreamer » August 4th, 2015, 8:22 am

The chain is just of plain steel...
If you are going to dream... DREAM BIG!!!
You may say that I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one!
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The difference between a dream & reality is, a good plan!
WARNING: No "cartridge type" respirator will filter out nitric fumes, NONE!!!

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby kurtak » August 4th, 2015, 8:48 am

Ok Phil

I already said your cell was very cool --- but it just keeps getting better every time I look at the new pics you post 8) :mrgreen: :lol:

Kurt

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby philddreamer » August 4th, 2015, 9:29 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Thank you, Kurt!

Mind you... this is the prototype!!! :mrgreen:

Phil
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The difference between a dream & reality is, a good plan!
WARNING: No "cartridge type" respirator will filter out nitric fumes, NONE!!!

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby jason_recliner » August 8th, 2015, 3:00 am

goldsilverpro wrote:You don't want the tumbler turning too fast. Maybe about 5 RPM.

I just found a couple of microwave turntable motors. Just in case you ever feel like automating, these things run at 5 rpm.
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby MarcoP » August 8th, 2015, 8:26 am

jason_recliner wrote:I just found a couple of microwave turntable motors. Just in case you ever feel like automating, these things run at 5 rpm.
Wondering if the speed could be made variable, say 3-10 rpm range, and how. They have a good torque..

Marco

Edit: clarity

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby goldsilverpro » August 8th, 2015, 8:31 am

Most gold plating strips pretty fast in sulfuric and the tumbler doesn't necessarily need to be motorized. Hand cranking every 15-30 sec, or so, just to change the positions of the parts, would probably work OK.
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby jason_recliner » August 8th, 2015, 10:56 am

goldsilverpro wrote:Most gold plating strips pretty fast in sulfuric and the tumbler doesn't necessarily need to be motorized. Hand cranking every 15-30 sec, or so, just to change the positions of the parts, would probably work OK.

I thought that too. I was just putting it out there since I read the rpm and made a mental connection with something I had read.

Marco, mine are Australian models and therefore built for 240Vac/50Hz. I suppose you could double it to 10rpm just by doubling the input power frequency. That's if you wanted to build a 100Hz 240Vac power supply which, unless you're a power electronics wizard, is probably more trouble than running it through a gearbox. And to slow it you would need a gear reduction. Because if you gave it 240Vac at 30Hz you would get 3/5 the original rpm but would saturate the magnetic core. I would give it 5 minutes before it burns out.

[Edit for spelling.]
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby 4metals » August 8th, 2015, 10:59 am

Most gold plating strips pretty fast in sulfuric and the tumbler doesn't necessarily need to be motorized. Hand cranking every 15-30 sec, or so, just to change the positions of the parts, would probably work OK.


Excellent point, these tumblers are copied from units designed to put plating on the parts, so a nice slow tumbling action assures a good uniform plating job that looks good too. Since your unit is for stripping only, you want the plating off and don't care much if the stripped down parts look pretty or not, so Chris is right (no surprise there!) an occasional hand crank should do the trick.

As far as modifying a tumbler motor for adjustable RPM, I would pass on that. In refining, where you are talking about exposure to corrosive chemicals and corrosive atmosphere, KISS technology wins out every time.
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby 4metals » August 8th, 2015, 6:24 pm

Phil,

I think life would be easier if the basket could easily detach from the shaft so you don't need to remove the entire frame to empty and reload. I see the solution sitting on the side of the tank from that process and it's messy. If you were to cut the main shaft leading to the basket just under the tee the shaft spins in and glue on a coupling to one piece of the shaft and slide in the other end and pin it with a small nut and bolt, it should be easier to just remove the basket. You may have to sand the pipe a bit for the slip connection so it comes out easy.

You may have to reconfigure the dangler a bit so it isn't in the way but freeing up just the basket with a short length of shaft will make rinsing and reloading easier, you could even make extra baskets so they can dry out between rinsing and not dilute your acid too much.

Just a thought.

All in all you did a very nice job, thanks for sharing it with us.
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby g_axelsson » August 8th, 2015, 6:48 pm

Another improvement would be to use a wider stand for the tumbler so you don't need to have it in the acid. If it was sitting outside of the tank you don't need to wash of the acid from the stand, only from the basket.

Göran
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby 4metals » August 8th, 2015, 7:56 pm

When Phil gets all of the kinks out he can quit his day job and start selling his units.
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby scrapman1077 » August 9th, 2015, 10:48 am

g_axelsson wrote:Another improvement would be to use a wider stand for the tumbler so you don't need to have it in the acid. If it was sitting outside of the tank you don't need to wash of the acid from the stand, only from the basket.

Göran



From what I can see, the back end/bottom of the basket is supported by the frame, so that can't be outside the tank.

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby g_axelsson » August 9th, 2015, 1:59 pm

scrapman1077 wrote:
g_axelsson wrote:Another improvement would be to use a wider stand for the tumbler so you don't need to have it in the acid. If it was sitting outside of the tank you don't need to wash of the acid from the stand, only from the basket.

Göran



From what I can see, the back end/bottom of the basket is supported by the frame, so that can't be outside the tank.

You are correct, it's built like that and I didn't see it at first. I was one step ahead and thinking on how to easily load and unload the basket.

Then I suggest welding a steel ring at an angle near the bottom at the short side where the basket can rest, then there is no more reason to put the tubes inside the acid.

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby 4metals » August 20th, 2015, 3:36 pm

This is an oblique plating barrel made by Sterling, the basket and shaft just slip on and off. At $1500 it is pricey but surely seeing this design some of the more mechanical members can figure out a way to do this inexpensively.

oblique plating barrel.jpg
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby philddreamer » August 25th, 2015, 12:02 pm

Sorry, I'm out of town. Will be back home by the end of the month.

Thanks!
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby maynman1751 » December 10th, 2015, 6:57 am

Any updates on your de-plating cell Phil????? Or did I miss them? Great work, sweet cell!!!! 8)
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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby beav3r316 » January 19th, 2016, 11:06 pm

maynman1751 wrote:Any updates on your de-plating cell Phil????? Or did I miss them? Great work, sweet cell!!!! 8)


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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby nickton » August 5th, 2018, 3:48 am

does the metal ever contaminate your precipitate? Or is it not a problem? I always thought a glass container would be best for a stripping cell. Also I noticed some plastic dissolves in Sulfuric acid. Obviously not all does since it is sold in plastic bottles. Perhaps pvc is immune? Knowing what kinds won't disintegrate is very useful no doubt.

I wonder if one could coat the interior with some kind of ceramic porceline type paint? Or maybe polyurethane or epoxy? Perhaps that garage floor coating would work. Just a thought. I'd love to know what plastics are most impervious to sulfuric acid. :idea:

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby philddreamer » August 12th, 2018, 12:52 pm

Howdy! It's been 3 years... :shock: how time flies!
I'm sorry it's taken so long, but lots of issues kept me from updating the cell.

I decided to try putting together a tumbler, made out of 1/2 inch expanded mild steel; the openings are 5/16th of an inch x 7/8th of an inch... so I lined the inside with 1/8 inch copper mesh.


Today I plan to set up the tank / cooling system and hopefully run some pounds of pins and connectors this coming week while we have dry weather!
I'll be posting pic's as I set up...

Thanks!
Phil
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WARNING: No "cartridge type" respirator will filter out nitric fumes, NONE!!!

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby philddreamer » August 12th, 2018, 6:27 pm

nickton wrote:
does the metal ever contaminate your precipitate? Or is it not a problem? I always thought a glass container would be best for a stripping cell. Also I noticed some plastic dissolves in Sulfuric acid. Obviously not all does since it is sold in plastic bottles. Perhaps pvc is immune? Knowing what kinds won't disintegrate is very useful no doubt.

No. Concentrated sulphuric doesn't attack mild steel. It's not a problem. Well, glass can break... that would be a problem. With a steel tank you do NEED to make sure you DON"T arc!!! Yes, some plastics do, but PVC is not affected. I'm re-using the PVC fittings I used 3 years ago!

I wonder if one could coat the interior with some kind of ceramic porceline type paint? Or maybe polyurethane or epoxy? Perhaps that garage floor coating would work. Just a thought. I'd love to know what plastics are most impervious to sulfuric acid.

If you coat a mild steel tank, you defeat the purpose... it works as your cathode, so you don't need to place a lead cathode.

Phil
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WARNING: No "cartridge type" respirator will filter out nitric fumes, NONE!!!

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Re: Mild Carbon Steel Sulphuric Cell

Postby philddreamer » August 12th, 2018, 6:58 pm

The dimensions of the tumbler are 5in.W x 5in.H x 12in.L.
IMG_2862.JPG


I'm using some PVC fittings to insulate the tumbler so it doesn't arc while in use.
IMG_2861.JPG

I'll be using a couple of bent rods for moving the tumbler from the bottom of the tank, to the top, in order to drain excess acid, before re-loading tumbler.
IMG_2857.JPG

(For now, I plan to use a small basket, while re-loading the tumbler!)

Thanks!

Phil
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If you are going to dream... DREAM BIG!!!
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value --- zero." Voltaire (1694-1778)
The difference between a dream & reality is, a good plan!
WARNING: No "cartridge type" respirator will filter out nitric fumes, NONE!!!


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