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smelting black sands to retrieve gold

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Gold_Striker

Post October 18th, 2010, 1:03 am

smelting black sands to retrieve gold

FIRST: I am new here and very pleased to see a forum dedicated to refining. I consider chemistry to be a high order of wisdom and knowledge mostly beyond my own comprehension. However I know you are able to explain certain things to us laymen so I am happy to have found you here. I want to learn if a person with no formal knowledge of these things can refine gold nuggets or raw gold into a state of purity.

For now I am resigned that I must pay others to refine my gold.

The Point of My Post:

I read on treasurenet that you can smelt black sand and that four out of every ten grains is actually mirco gold encased in magnetite. I want to learn from all of you to see if there is a consensus among you on this point. Is it profitable to smelt black sands for gold.
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Harold_V

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Post October 18th, 2010, 4:43 am

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Read Hoke's book. From it you should learn enough to successfully process the gold you speak of.

Let me give you something to think about.

If processing black sands was as easy as you suggest, don't you think everyone would be doing it? Also, if it contained as much gold as you've been lead to believe, don't you think it would be a hot commodity in reality, instead of in the minds of prospectors?

I'm not suggesting, not for a moment, that gold isn't found in black sand---I'm simply saying that it's not anywhere near the rosy picture that has been presented to you.

Welcome to the forum.

Harold
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Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
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Shecker

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Post December 1st, 2010, 9:52 am

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Just as a thought, it takes high temperature to melt magnetite and in that environment the chances of slaging precious metals is very high. A chemical treatment would be better. A simple test with AR and stannus chloride will indicated the presences of precious metals such as gold.

Chemistry doesn't always have to be exotic. My personal working philosophy is that every ore found in nature has its own unique chemical signature. Find what works with that and you have a successful process. But it can take time, but you cannot buy the learning curve you will receive.

Randy in Gunnison
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Economic strength comes from fair weights and measures.
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Capt. Norka

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Post January 7th, 2011, 2:50 am

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

I found an article on a web site... sounds like it could or would work... I'll post it here and see what everyone thinks...


"BLACK SAND RECOVERY"

Heres How You Do It
Getting upto 99% of your Gold out of the Black Sand Concentrates

1,[FOR STARTERS] What you'll need to process Black Sand Concentrates.
one #12 classifier
one #20 classifier
two gold pans
water
wash tub
few 5 gallon buckets.
micro sluice or gold wheel
tumbler
Keene Gravity Bowl

2, Your first few steps.
Classify your material into several sizes
Larger than # 12 [nugget size, you can pick'em out]
Larger than # 20 [micro sluice/gold wheel or you can pan this out, it's really easy]
Smaller than # 20 [this is for your tumbler]

3,Put the smaller than #20 concentrates into your tumbler
Add acidic acid "white vinegar" and tumble over night
Take concentrates "the tumbled stuff" and add it using a small scoop into a running KGB BOWL
Once finished running the KGB, snuffer out the fine Gold
Take the remaining Black sand "left in the KGB" and mix it with equal amounts of Table salt
Put the mixed product into an iron skillet
heat up untill completely dry "do this outside"
Once really hot and dry, pour the mix into a tub/bucket of cool water
"DON'T PUT THE IRON SKILLET INTO THE WATER" Just dump the sand/salt "this fractures the attached Gold"
Collect up the stuff you just dumped into the cool water
Now run this material thru your KGB gravity bowl
Snuffer up the visible gold when done

4, What did I just do, you ask...
You classified your material by size "largest to smallest".
If you have the necessary equipment "you just eliminated 99% of the panning your concentrates"
By tumbling the smallest size with vinegar "you just cleaned it up and removed the organics"
By roasting it, "you fractured the sodium Gold and attached gold from the black sand"

5, Is it worth it ???
YOU BET IT IS...
Most of the time there is 4 - 10 times more ulta-fine "Micro Gold" in your Black sand than Visible Gold.
Gold is Gold Reguardless of it's size, oh sure the big stuff is great !!!
But that Fine Gold really can start to add up and do it quickly...
"IF YOU TAKE THE EXTRA TIME AND STEPS TO RECOVER IT"...


Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.
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Harold_V

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Post January 7th, 2011, 4:21 am

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Capt. Norka wrote:Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.

Key to success, of course, if to have gold-bearing black sand. An assay is in order.

Harold
You are what you write.
Wise people talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something.
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Irons

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Post January 7th, 2011, 8:55 am

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Harold_V wrote:
Capt. Norka wrote:Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.

Key to success, of course, if to have gold-bearing black sand. An assay is in order.

Harold


Recipe for Elephant Stew:

1. Find the Elephant.

....
The stingy man pays the most.

I cut it 3 times and it's still too short.
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nickvc

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Post January 7th, 2011, 9:00 am

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Irons wrote:
Harold_V wrote:
Capt. Norka wrote:Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.

Key to success, of course, if to have gold-bearing black sand. An assay is in order.

Harold


Recipe for Elephant Stew:

1. Find the Elephant.

....

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Richard36

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Post January 8th, 2011, 6:12 am

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

nickvc wrote:
Irons wrote:
Harold_V wrote:
Capt. Norka wrote:Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.

Key to success, of course, if to have gold-bearing black sand. An assay is in order.

Harold


Recipe for Elephant Stew:

1. Find the Elephant.

....

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Well, if anyone "Finds the Elephant", I have the gun, as well as a few recipes, lol.
May your pan be full of Gold, and your pockets full of nuggets.

Rick, Geo.-Tech.Analytical PH # 1-541-367-4169
http://geotechanalytical.weebly.com/index.html
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AuMINIMayhem

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Post January 24th, 2011, 4:09 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Richard36 wrote:
nickvc wrote:
Irons wrote:
Harold_V wrote:
Capt. Norka wrote:Let me know if anyone puts it to the test and if it works... I'd be willing to try it. I have plenty of black sand.

Key to success, of course, if to have gold-bearing black sand. An assay is in order.

Harold


Recipe for Elephant Stew:

1. Find the Elephant.

....

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Well, if anyone "Finds the Elephant", I have the gun, as well as a few recipes, lol.



...and I own a restaraunt who could prepare said elephant in a few different manners. Elephant pizza or grinders, anyone? :mrgreen:
A lack of conscience is often a sign of bad memory.
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eeTHr

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Post January 24th, 2011, 7:42 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

The really hard part is convincing the elephant to get into the pot.
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wrecker45

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Post January 24th, 2011, 8:57 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

elephant stew will feed 300 people for 6 months
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RGJohn

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Post January 28th, 2011, 6:45 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Gold_Striker wrote: I want to learn if a person with no formal knowledge of these things can refine gold nuggets or raw gold into a state of purity.
I too am new. Yes I think we can learn this here. But actually nuggets command a higher price than the melt value of the gold that they contain.
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I read on treasurenet that you can smelt black sand and that four out of every ten grains is actually mirco gold encased in magnetite. I want to learn from all of you to see if there is a consensus among you on this point. Is it profitable to smelt black sands for gold.


Smelting is expensive. I would take a small sample of your black sands, say 4 ordinary ounces. I would pan that and pick out all the nuggets with my fingers. I would pick out all the flakes with tweezers. If there are fines I would get them all into one riffle or edge of my pan and physically remove them. With a vacuum or whatever. Never use mercury. THEN, I would do it all again and again until I felt that I had removed ALL the gold. Then I would send the 'tails', that being the remainder of the 4 ounces of black sand to a competent assayer. An assay is a miniature smelting process. Ask that the entire sample be pulverised and blended, then sampled and the sample assayed for gold. This gsp fellow here will do it for only $25 which is cheap by a factor of 2 to 4. The assay result will tell you how much gold was in that black sand that you missed ( if any).If the values justify the expenditure of capital and labor, I would cyanide them in some type of grinding circuit. It is unusual to find this to be the case. Placer gold has been liberated from its matrix for the most part. It has not become entrained in the hematite, etc. People say that because they are unwilling to accept that their concentrate (black sand) is only worth what it is worth.
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On the other hand, some of the pegmatites which produce magnetic iron also contain 'rare earths'. This may be a field, previously overlooked, in that these rare earth elements are perhaps concentrated but ignored in the black sands. Personally, I think that is more likely than that the gold has somehow magically, mysteriously become entrained in the iron. And remains there invisible to all except the guy telling you all this nonsense.
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Gold miners make fishermen seem both accurate and precise in comparison when discussing the 'one that got away' IME. They will declare virtually anything, no matter how preposterous, rather than simply admit that the values are not there. Again IME. Words like micro gold, monatomic gold, 'black box technology' refer to imaginary concepts and often they are used with the intent to cheat the unwary.
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jeneje

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Post January 29th, 2011, 8:07 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Yes I have personally tried this I can tell you it is a waste of time and money. If you insist on trying it be carefull and do this outside away from anything living. The table salt when heated to the temp, needed to fracture the black sand will put off chlorine gas. BE CAREFUL VERY CAREFUL it is nothing to mess around with.
Never jump in blind, it's leads to stupidity!
My mind works like lightning - One brilliant flash and it's GONE!!
The difference between Stupidity and Wisdom - Wisdom lets' Stupidity go first!


http://www.refinementofpreciousmetals.com
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Aurum factorem

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Post February 17th, 2011, 7:31 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Words like micro gold, monatomic gold, 'black box technology' refer to imaginary concepts and often they are used with the intent to cheat the unwary.


I don't know what "black box tech" is but micron gold and monatomic gold are certainly not imaginary concepts. Gold deposits that are too small to see do exist and can definitely be extracted if present. Gold tied up in sulfides and tellurides for instance... It is true that these concepts are used to cheat the unwary. The only way to tell is by smelting (an oxidizing process) or a fire assay (a reducing process)

-A.F.
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Aurum factorem

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Post February 17th, 2011, 7:35 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

The only way to tell is by smelting (an oxidizing process) or a fire assay (a reducing process)


Correction: chemical means exist but are generally too messy (AR) or dangerous (Halides, cyanide, etc.) Amalgamation could work but is also generally too dangerous for my taste.

-A.F.
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dtectr

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Post February 17th, 2011, 9:18 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Aurum factorem wrote:
The only way to tell is by smelting (an oxidizing process) or a fire assay (a reducing process)


Correction: chemical means exist but are generally too messy (AR) or dangerous (Halides, cyanide, etc.) Amalgamation could work but is also generally too dangerous for my taste.

-A.F.

And I thought Alchemy was dead ... Long Live the Wizard !!!

If your plan for success is "I have some hidden knowledge that no one else possesses, except the guy who SOLD it to me ..."

Sorry - (not really)
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djui5

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Post February 20th, 2011, 1:35 am

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Aurum factorem wrote:
Correction: chemical means exist but are generally too messy (AR)

-A.F.


What do you mean by "messy"?
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Steppegold

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Post February 28th, 2011, 10:35 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

A suggestion for detecting gold inside black sand...

Most black sand does NOT contain microscopic gold in economic quantities, or else the gold price would take a tumble.
But sure, sometimes it DOES and then the baby is thrown out with the tailings and the bathwater.

We use the following trick in Mongolia.
1: notice that gold is remarkably soft and malleable.
2: notice that black sands are often brittle and not malleable (e.g. magnetite).
3: put dry black sand on a sheet of clean steel.
4: beat the black sand with a small hammer.
5: the black sand grains shatter.
6: any gold is released.
7: any gold is either tiny and visible only with a x40 to x100 stereo-zoom microscope, or is big enough to be beaten flat and rendered large enough to be seen by eye in bright light.
8: use a feather to gently scrape away the shattered black sand.
9: gently blow to gently blow away more shattered black sand.

Cheap, quick and interesting.
Usually there is no gold, but then when there is....!! :lol:

Steppe
http://www.mine.mn
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bubba

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Post April 12th, 2011, 9:58 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

I have sat with most of the major smelters in north america, europe, and japan either at their facility or at mine. The common denominator seems to be, that they all seem to work on about $1.00 a lb. And this is with serious volume, like 40,000 lb. lots.
So this means that your material must me worth at least $2,000 a ton just to break even (not including freight to the smelter)
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RGJohn

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Post April 13th, 2011, 2:24 pm

Re: smelting black sands to retrieve gold

Aurum factorem wrote:
Words like micro gold, monatomic gold, 'black box technology' refer to imaginary concepts and often they are used with the intent to cheat the unwary.


I don't know what "black box tech" is but micron gold and monatomic gold are certainly not imaginary concepts. Gold deposits that are too small to see do exist and can definitely be extracted if present. Gold tied up in sulfides and tellurides for instance... It is true that these concepts are used to cheat the unwary. The only way to tell is by smelting (an oxidizing process) or a fire assay (a reducing process)

-A.F.


Are fire assay and smelting 2 distinctly different processes? My understanding was that each reduced metallic oxides, chlorides, sulphides, what-the-heck-have-ya into metals.
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In what particular(s) do they differ? Isn't the intended pupose of the fire assay to replicate (upon minature scale) the results which one would reasonably expect to obtain from the smelter (the same process but on a macro scale)?
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What makes one a reducing process in your estimation and how specifically and why does it differ from the oxidizing process of the other?
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