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will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

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batesy53

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Post April 25th, 2012, 4:45 pm

will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

hey there

i am dissolving some cpus in 1 oz batches at the moment until i get this right.i am dissolving in AR 1-4 ratio,filtering a couple times,then adding urea an abit of warm water to the mixture..everything swt up2 adding the precipitant...i was told to use ferrous sulphate to precipitate the gold??will this work???how much do i add to a 1oz batch??how long will it take??do i need 2 dissolve it in warm water 1st??

any clues r greatly appreciated
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NobleMetalWorks

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Post April 25th, 2012, 5:50 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Ferrous Sulphate will drop out everything in solution that is lower on the reactivity series, than Iron, ferrous sulphate is really iron. As gold is lower on the reactivity series table, it will precipitate out Au, but also everything else under Fe. Should you use it to precipitate Au? It really depends on what you have in solution, what you want to get out of solution, and what point in your process you are.

For reference look here for the reactivity series:

http://www.zephyrus.co.uk/thereactivityseries.html

There are many other people that know far more about this than I do, if one of you would like to fill in the rest of what I might missed so I can learn also, I would appreciate it. Or if I have posted anything incorrect, please correct me.

Thanks

Scott
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"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes". Erasmus (1467-1536))
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Geo

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Post April 25th, 2012, 7:17 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

ferrous sulfate is copperas.it is used to precipitate gold. many members use it to process their gold.
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butcher

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Post April 25th, 2012, 8:42 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Copperas or ferrous sulfate is a very good gold precipitant, in fact many times I prefer Copperas for precipitating gold instead of using sodium metabisulfate.

(Edit: I goofed the chemical I meant to say was sodium metabisulfite). :oops:

Hokes book also uses copperas to precipitate gold, she even explains how to test for gold in solution using ferrous sulfate.

I have not noticed any more base metals precipitating when using FeSO4 than I have from using SMB. In fact I would guess that SMB in excess would be more likely to precipitate copper than ferrous sulfate in excess would, especially if your gold solution was contaminated with copper.

Ferrous sulfate is a salt of iron (iron and sulfuric acid), but it does not act the same in a copper solution as the elemental metal Iron would react to precipitate the copper, the iron metal bar has all of its electrons to share and will give these electrons up to the copper in solution, so copper ions would convert to metal copper powder, the ferrous sulfate does not have excess electrons to share and so it does not precipitate the copper, so here copper and iron can be in solution together as ions.
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NobleMetalWorks

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Post April 25th, 2012, 8:50 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

butcher wrote:Copperas or ferrous sulfate is a very good gold precipitant, in fact many times I prefer Copperas for precipitating gold instead of using sodium metabisulfate.

Hokes book also uses copperas to precipitate gold, she even explains how to test for gold in solution using ferrous sulfate.

I have not noticed any more base metals precipitating when using FeSO4 than I have from using SMB. In fact I would guess that SMB in excess would be more likely to precipitate copper than ferrous sulfate in excess would, especially if your gold solution was contaminated with copper.

Ferrous sulfate is a salt of iron (iron and sulfuric acid), but it does not act the same in a copper solution as the elemental metal Iron would react to precipitate the copper, the iron metal bar has all of its electrons to share and will give these electrons up to the copper in solution, so copper ions would convert to metal copper powder, the ferrous sulfate does not have excess electrons to share and so it does not precipitate the copper, so here copper and iron can be in solution together as ions.


Butcher,

Thank you for the correction and explanation.

Scott
At the heart of science is an essential balance between two seemingly contradictory attitudes--an openness to new ideas, no matter how bizarre or counterintuitive they may be, and the most ruthless skeptical scrutiny of all ideas, old and new. This is how deep truths are winnowed from deep nonsense. -- Carl Sagan

"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes". Erasmus (1467-1536))
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butcher

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Post April 25th, 2012, 9:33 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Scott,
You are correct that it is the iron in the copperas that precipitates the gold, here is something else to consider, if you have gold and platinum in solution, ferrous sulfate will precipitate the gold but not the platinum (platinum is below iron in the reactivity series), if we added a bar of elemental iron to the solution of gold and platinum, the iron would give up electrons to both gold and platinum and precipitate both of these metals from solution.

The reactions of the metal and ferrous sulfate in these examples are different types of reactions.
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NobleMetalWorks

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Post April 25th, 2012, 10:45 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

After I read what was posted, after my post, I referred to my chemistry book, I wanted to understand the differences exactly. I really appreciate the clarification.

Thank you

Scott
At the heart of science is an essential balance between two seemingly contradictory attitudes--an openness to new ideas, no matter how bizarre or counterintuitive they may be, and the most ruthless skeptical scrutiny of all ideas, old and new. This is how deep truths are winnowed from deep nonsense. -- Carl Sagan

"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes". Erasmus (1467-1536))
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batesy53

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Post April 26th, 2012, 3:42 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

thank you 4 your posts at least i am on the right track now..is it better to heat the solution slightly after i hav added the ferrous sulphate???thanks again 4 the help
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Harold_V

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Post April 26th, 2012, 4:04 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Heating is not a requirement, and, at least in some cases, can work against you. That is the case when precipitating with SO2 from concentrated solutions.

However, there are instances where heat is required, such as using oxalic acid.

Read Hoke.

Harold
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batesy53

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Post April 26th, 2012, 7:42 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

thanks harold,so do i just leave it 2 do its thing for a little while???

thx
chris
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tek4g63

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Post April 26th, 2012, 8:19 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Butcher,
I hate to be this guy.

Copperas or ferrous sulfate is a very good gold precipitant, in fact many times I prefer Copperas for precipitating gold instead of using sodium metabisulfate


You ment sodium metabisulfite, correct?

Just want to keep it accurate for new members. Please don't hate me.
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Post April 26th, 2012, 10:00 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

tek4g63 wrote:Butcher,
I hate to be this guy.

Copperas or ferrous sulfate is a very good gold precipitant, in fact many times I prefer Copperas for precipitating gold instead of using sodium metabisulfate


You ment sodium metabisulfite, correct?

Just want to keep it accurate for new members. Please don't hate me.


Yes sir! You be right. You caught Butcher with a typo! It is indeed Sodium Metabisulf(ite) and NOT
Metabisulf(ate!)
You can't fix stupid...stupid is forever!

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philddreamer

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Post April 26th, 2012, 10:07 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

It was probably an echo from repeating "iron sulphate".

Now, I have a question. Should we then use iron sulphate for precipitating the gold out of dirty solutions, instead of SMB?
Use SMB on "cleaner solutions"?

Phil
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Post April 26th, 2012, 11:59 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

philddreamer wrote:It was probably an echo from repeating "iron sulphate".


Now, I have a question. Should we then use iron sulphate for precipitating the gold out of dirty solutions, instead of SMB?
Use SMB on "cleaner solutions"?

Phil


I would imagine so. It's not often that that man is mistaken! 8)


I don't see that it would make a difference....or I don't get your logic!
You can't fix stupid...stupid is forever!

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butcher

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Post April 26th, 2012, 12:34 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

You are very correct, I did make a mistake in my use of words, I meant to say sodium metabisulfite, (and not sodium metabisulfate), the endings in these chemical names are important as they contain differing amounts of oxygen and so they can react differently in solution.

Thank you for catching my goof, this also shows me your paying close attention and learning, and if I were allowed to use the wrong name for a chemical, some new member could think that it would work, or that we use that chemical when we do not, and not know I used the wrong name for that chemical, with chemistry and mixing chemicals and metals, using the wrong chemicals or chemical name, could become dangerous, I will post a correction to the post above in red.

Phil,

I think dirty solutions can be hard to precipitate from, no matter what chemical used, take the case of tin in solution for example tin is involved in electronics from the solder, when in a solution dissolved with gold, tin will reduce the gold, forming colloids in solution, these gold metal particles will not settle but become charged particles, and repel each other they will not combine, to precipitate, but keep each other in solution, they also have been reduced to metal gold particles (by the reaction with tin), so they have already have gained back their missing electrons, so adding a copper buss bar will not cement them or reduce them to metals (they are already reduced), these gold particles are already reduced to metal so stannous chloride will not test for gold in this solution, they are already gold metal particles so a chemicals will not reduce them, so we are stuck here, we cannot tell there is gold in this solution and we cannot precipitate the gold unless we can break the colloid, (high heat and raising acid content can help some here).
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Post April 26th, 2012, 12:42 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

butcher wrote:You are very correct, I did make a mistake in my use of words, I meant to say sodium metabisulfite, (and not sodium metabisulfate), the endings in these chemical names are important as they contain differing amounts of oxygen and so they can react differently in solution.

Thank you for catching my goof, this also shows me your paying close attention and learning, and if I were allowed to use the wrong name for a chemical, some new member could think that it would work, or that we use that chemical when we do not, and not know I used the wrong name for that chemical, with chemistry and mixing chemicals and metals, using the wrong chemicals or chemical name, could become dangerous, I will post a correction to the post above in red.

Phil,

I think dirty solutions can be hard to precipitate from, no matter what chemical used, take the case of tin in solution for example tin is involved in electronics from the solder, when in a solution dissolved with gold, tin will reduce the gold, forming colloids in solution, these gold metal particles will not settle but become charged particles, and repel each other they will not combine, to precipitate, but keep each other in solution, they also have been reduced to metal gold particles (by the reaction with tin), so they have already have gained back their missing electrons, so adding a copper buss bar will not cement them or reduce them to metals (they are already reduced), these gold particles are already reduced to metal so stannous chloride will not test for gold in this solution, they are already gold metal particles so a chemicals will not reduce them, so we are stuck here, we cannot tell there is gold in this solution and we cannot precipitate the gold unless we can break the colloid, (high heat and raising acid content can help some here).


also keep in mind that these solutions will have a distinctive color, ranging from mauve to royal blue and even red.
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Post April 26th, 2012, 1:02 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Butcher wrote:
I have not noticed any more base metals precipitating when using FeSO4 than I have from using SMB. In fact I would guess that SMB in excess would be more likely to precipitate copper than ferrous sulfate in excess would, especially if your gold solution was contaminated with copper.


The material that I process has little tin, & most of the base metals are removed when I run the material either thru HCl or nitric in order to get rid of most of the base metals. So, copper & a bit of silver are usually the contaminants present in my AR. That's why I asked if precipitating my first round of AR with iron sulphate would give a "cleaner" gold; so, then I run the gold thru AR a second time, then precipitate with SMB. It was just a thought.

Thanks!

Phil
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Post April 26th, 2012, 1:12 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

batesy53 wrote:thanks harold,so do i just leave it 2 do its thing for a little while???

thx
chris

The reaction, assuming you have eliminated nitric completely, is immediate. No wait time is required, and the change is visibly obvious in that the solution clouds immediately, and changes color because the gold is removed as a solution. The cloudiness that appears is the fine particles of gold that precipitate.

We're a bit touchy (at least I am) on the use of trick substitutes of numbers for words. You will be well served to stop using the number 2 when you mean *to* or *too*. I get down-right unreasonable when folks do that. Here, where the use of wrong terms can spell the difference between success and failure---or danger and safety, we try to be very precise in what we say, and how it is said. None of us are perfect, but we do our best by eliminating contractions that may not be clear to some folks, in particular those who do not use English as a first language.

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butcher

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Post April 26th, 2012, 8:26 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Philddreamer,
Hoke’s book speaks of refining the second time using a different precipitant than you used the first time, she says it helps, I believe these may act slightly different on which metals may also precipitate slightly from the solutions, but I am not real sure of details?
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Post April 26th, 2012, 8:50 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Thanks Richard!
I remembered reading so, & that's why I asked. Maybe the iron sulphate first & on the second SMB. I'm going to give a shot on my next batch.

Phil
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Post October 13th, 2012, 1:12 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

SBrown wrote:
butcher wrote:Copperas or ferrous sulfate is a very good gold precipitant, in fact many times I prefer Copperas for precipitating gold instead of using sodium metabisulfate.

Hokes book also uses copperas to precipitate gold, she even explains how to test for gold in solution using ferrous sulfate.

I have not noticed any more base metals precipitating when using FeSO4 than I have from using SMB. In fact I would guess that SMB in excess would be more likely to precipitate copper than ferrous sulfate in excess would, especially if your gold solution was contaminated with copper.

Ferrous sulfate is a salt of iron (iron and sulfuric acid), but it does not act the same in a copper solution as the elemental metal Iron would react to precipitate the copper, the iron metal bar has all of its electrons to share and will give these electrons up to the copper in solution, so copper ions would convert to metal copper powder, the ferrous sulfate does not have excess electrons to share and so it does not precipitate the copper, so here copper and iron can be in solution together as ions.


Butcher,


hank you for the correction and explanation.

Scott



All,

As far as the copperas precitpiating only gold and not copper from a Au/Cu solution, I have to disagree, since I had a solution from AP process for fingers, and percipitated using copperas and the it produced gray/black powder instead of expected brown powder, after ammonia addition and boil, it turned dark brown color, so some other metals must have co-precipitated with gold.

Regards
Kevin
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butcher

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Post October 13th, 2012, 1:41 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

I was not trying to say that no copper would precipitate from using ferrous sulfate when precipitating gold from a dirty solution loaded with gold.

I was trying to explain that I believe less copper would precipitate from the same solution if copperous was used as opposed to SMB.

I have not noticed any more base metals precipitating when using FeSO4 than I have from using SMB. In fact I would guess that SMB in excess would be more likely to precipitate copper than ferrous sulfate in excess would, especially if your gold solution was contaminated with copper.

I never said "copperas precitpiating only gold and not copper from a Au/Cu solution" as you assumed I was saying, when precipitating gold from dirty solutions you will get that dirt in your precipitatant, in this case precipitating gold from a solution loaded with copper you will precipitate copper with your gold, which ever of these reagents you use.

I was also not discussing using ferrous sulfate as a recovery method by using it to precipitate gold from a solution heavily contaminated with copper as with precipitating gold from a copper solution, I was discussing using ferrous sulfate to precipitate gold from a gold solution with minor copper contaminate in the gold chloride solution as in the refining process as opposed to the recovery process.
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badran106

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Post October 23rd, 2013, 1:13 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

i saw that butcher is giving us information...i will read it later ....thank you man you are kind..
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butcher

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Post October 23rd, 2013, 1:23 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

badran106,

Basically garbage in your gold solution you get garbage out.
Keep the garbage out of your gold solutions.
That way you can precipitate a more pure gold from solution.
:lol:
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spaceships

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Post October 23rd, 2013, 5:47 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

To back up Butcher on his post. Excess SMB at outset appears to makes the dropping of any copper in solution with the gold very much more likely.

We've tried using large quantities of SMB to take the Chlorine out of a solution without boiling it off, and it has usually (over 70% of the time) resulted in a "dirty drop," pulling down any copper left, with the gold.

I have no experience with Ferrous Sulphate so I cannot comment on that part.

Jon
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steyr223

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Post October 24th, 2013, 2:41 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Hey guys
I have used in excess of 30 to 100 time
Smb for probely my first 25 drops
Just for the record my gold has always been 98+%
So what do you consider excess smb
and what do you consider the amount of copper the extra
smb is dragging down.

One of my very first drops was from
A/R and I remember putting in so much smb( way over
used nitric) about a 1/2 of a container of smb but my gold dropped :mrgreen:

Thanks steyr223 rob
I have to admit that untill I melted Au
from a dirty solution,
It was impossable
for me to understand the absolute
necessity for harolds washes.

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butcher

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Post October 24th, 2013, 11:08 pm

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Why??
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bswartzwelder

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Post October 25th, 2013, 9:26 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

steyr223 wrote:Hey guys
I have used in excess of 30 to 100 time
Smb for probely my first 25 drops
Just for the record my gold has always been 98+%
So what do you consider excess smb
and what do you consider the amount of copper the extra
smb is dragging down.

One of my very first drops was from
A/R and I remember putting in so much smb( way over
used nitric) about a 1/2 of a container of smb but my gold dropped :mrgreen:

Thanks steyr223 rob


I am pretty certain it takes about 1.1 ounces of SMB to precipitate 1 ounce of gold from your solution. By dumping in excess amounts of any chemical, you are creating more waste which at some time will need to be dealt with. Just my humble $0,02 worth.
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rickbb

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Post October 25th, 2013, 10:27 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

Perhaps your gold would have been 99.7%+ instead of 98%+ if you had only used the minimum amount of SMB?
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steyr223

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Post October 25th, 2013, 10:46 am

Re: will ferrous sulphate drop the gold???

rickbb wrote:Perhaps your gold would have been 99.7%+ instead of 98%+ if you had only used the minimum amount of SMB?


Yes yes but of course that's funny you
mention 99.7%+ because that's exactly
what I get now :lol:

I guess thats my answer

Butcher my friend
What can I say I'm a stubborn learner
it only took 9 HNO3/HCl reactions for me
To stop my use of excessive nitric acid.
That's after reading it from the first time

Thanks steyr223 rob
I have to admit that untill I melted Au
from a dirty solution,
It was impossable
for me to understand the absolute
necessity for harolds washes.

If teddy bears were outlawed, only outlaws would have teddy bears.

I got a gun for my wife, one of my better trades
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