Dealing with Waste

[Jmk88]

I know in the U.K. copper doesn’t need to be treated as toxic waste so as long as you have it in solid form, ie oxides, you can just bag it up and dispose? I would imagine it’s the same in the US.

Nitric however, is not the same. Once I’ve got my silver chloride out I just add bicarbonate till I get a neutral Ph, water, filter through a 1l Büchner flask and collect all oxides and then just use the water for my garden. Sometimes I even add some copperas if I’m tending my roses!

Think you’re way over complicating waste disposal!

 

[butcher]

Sounds like very bad advice.

Copper salts are toxic and should be disposed of properly.
As is most of the base metal salts we deal with loaded with heavily toxic metals.

If you are talking about putting your copper elemental metal in the trash, I fail to understand why anyone would want to trash copper metal.

Study the safety section and do your research recheck your local laws I am sure you are terribly mistaken about what and how you are treating your waste.

Having or using toxic copper salts is one thing, but it is a totally different issue when disposing of them.

Nitric, however, is not the same. Once I’ve got my silver chloride out I just add bicarbonate till I get a neutral Ph, water, filter through a 1l Büchner flask and collect all oxides and then just use the water for my garden. Sometimes I even add some copperas if I’m tending my roses!

What bad advice reminds me not to drink from the water around your home, your plants may survive but that doe not mean you are not poisoning everything around you.

So you take silver with other toxic metals and make them into soluble salts in a nitrate solution, and then add chlorides to attempt to recover silver as a chloride, then change the pH to remove a small portion of the remaining toxic and very soluble nitrate and chloride salt and then just simply dump these toxic metals into your garden, with the toxic water-soluble salts ending up in the groundwater, creeks rivers around your home where people get their drinking water from...

Just because a metal-salt-water solution does not have color, and even if it is neutral it does not mean it is safe, as it can still hold a slew of toxic metals that may not color the salt solution...

Please be sure to study and educate yourself about the dangers of your waste products, and gain an understanding of how to deal with them safely before you start attempting to give others dangerous advice on how to dump the toxic metals solutions you produce where they grow their food or where it will enter their children's or their pregnant wife's water supply...

I am sure your neighbors would not be glad to hear how you are dealing with these toxic solutions and pouring them out around your home and theirs...

I do not know about where you live homes here are condemned when found to be contaminated by chemicals (normally from the production of illegal drugs) that may well use the same chemicals we use in recovery or refining or have around our home for other purposes.

No, we are not making waste disposal complicated, actually, it is very simple to do properly.

Some people talk because they wish to say something, talk is cheap, your health and the health of others is not so cheap.


I personally reuse my byproducts as much as possible thus eliminating it as being a waste product I do not need to deal with much of it as a waste byproduct, and when I get enough waste that I need to deal with it I will spend the time and energy needed to deal with it properly and safely.

None of my waste would go into my garden or my soil, My garden is healthy and my soil is healthy, my well water is not going to get contaminated.

 

[Jmk88]

Hi butcher,

I have consulted with a local metal waste company and I understand very clearly what is toxic that I am dealing with.

I am of the understanding that oxide, bagged up correctly is not a toxic waste product and can be disposed of as such.

The same company have also advised me how safe it actually is to neutralise water and use it in plant pots. I refine for this company on a small scale.

I’m a bit confused as to most of your comments, not that I am dismissing.

However copper nitrate reduced to water and oxide salts then separated, is not a toxic process or does not create toxic products. You have water and copper oxide. Reinforced in Hokes information quite a few times I believe? She may not say to use it in your plant pots! However I wouldn’t say mine look “poisoned” or In a toxic environment!?

Or am I missing something completely? I’ve not seen one patch of grass or tree appear stressed at any stage. Nor has anyone be harmed. I’m very confused.

 

[Jmk88]

I fully understand pouring off soluble copper but that’s not really what I’m saying.

And I certainly haven’t advised anyone to pour off toxic waste. How do you describe neutralised water as “toxic”? It simply isn’t and I did not at any point say to someone “pour off toxic waste in soils, yours and your neighbours”.

If you do what I said properly having educated yourself like you say, there would be no issue whatsoever.

Copper flashings used to weather building joints regularly oxidise via atmospheric conditions which can become soluble and cause way more environment damage than what I’m saying.

And furthermore “some people speak for the sake of it”. How rude. You look at the topics I comment on and other than praising people products and posting my own, I mainly comment on safety and waste. To be compared ethically to a criminal drug dealer is a bit low. I would argue that someone manufacturing illegal drugs probably hasn’t got much ethical compass and if they’re prepared to destroy human lives, it’s almost a given they wouldn’t care about the environment so you’re comparing apples with bricks to be frank.

I’m also a qualified structural engineer that specialises in sustainable and green construction.

I think someone that’s able to successfully teach themselves A process such as refining with zero chemistry background is probably sensible enough to gauge whether they are destroying their environment.... particularly after 18 months of doing what we’re talking about.

Please don’t accuse me of advising people to pour off toxic waste into their gardens, not at all what I said.

It seems to me that unless you’re approved by certain members, giving advice is frowned upon. I was raised in a fairly hostile environment so it just motivates me even more. First post I’ve ever received I’ve genuinely been upset about.

 

[butcher]

Copper salts are poisons.

Copper and many other metal salts, although toxic are often used in agriculture, (often because they are toxic to insects mold fungus or used for other purposes.

Some metal salts can help plants grow like crazy (they may not poison your roses and your rose may love it, but those same metal salts will destroy our environments creeks, streams and rivers, and poison or contaminate the wells we drink from.

If you need copper salts for your grapes I suggest you buy the product and understand the dangers of its use and its proper disposal. if you need fertilizer use it properly and if you need to dispose of it do so properly.

Toxic waster you are generating in recovery or refining is a toxic poison, bringing it to pH 7 it may have cleared some metals from the salt solution but it still is extremely toxic at this point with highly toxic metals.

So you are roasting all of your toxic metal salts to a red hot glow in an oxidizing environment and holding that temperature while stirring them for enough time for the conversion of the salts or metal powders to be able to form oxides? If not why do you believe them to be oxides?

For that matter many different metal salts or powders can be poison, a water solution with toxic metals at a pH of 7 neutral (around the same pH and similar in appearance as your drinking water can hold poisonous toxic metals.

Do not put your foot in your mouth, do not take someone else's advice, no matter where they work or where they were educated they may be wrong or you may not understand them. or you and they may be discussing different circumstances... Educate yourself, learn to properly deal with your waste, or any of these chemicals and the byproducts of the reactions they produce.

No one was comparing anyone to an un-ethically to a criminal drug dealer, so why are you saying it is a bit low to do so.
But the drug lab with many of the same chemicals and acids that we also use which create toxic substances so bad they have to condemn and clean up the property and no one can live there or buy the property should give you a clue you do not want to be dumping anything from your recovery or refining metals in acids or alkalies into your garden, your soil, your septic or city sewer...,

As far as your viewpoint of :
"Seems to me that unless you’re approved by certain members, giving advice is frowned upon."

Giving bad advice is definitely frowned upon that is a fact. Especially if that bad advice is wrong or will put people in harm's way then yes we begin to frown.

Nobody here on the forum has to ask for anyone's approval, why would you think you need someone else's aproval?



I was raised in a fairly hostile environment so it just motivates me even more. First post I’ve ever received I’ve genuinely been upset about.

 

[Jmk88]

I have, I paid an awful lot of money for consulting advice on this exact matter by a professional waste company. They would inherit full liability of any wrong advice they provide. Particularly as waste is disposed of In their very regulated facilities in this exact way.

More than happy to share who they are.

Adding a base like hydroxide or bicarbonate, to my understanding produces copper hydroxides which again, are not considered toxic in solid form.

Maybe I’m wrong.

So the tons and tons of household waste that oxidises through atmospheric reactions inevitably, what is that doing to our planet?

Again, I don’t believe I am poisoning the environment, that is an extremist view in context.

And to be frank, again what has occurred here is I’ve seen someone talking about “boiling their nitric waste”. In my opinion boiling nitric has no place in refining at any stage whatsoever. You never need to boil nitric, in recovery, refining or waste. That is way more adverse to the environment unless you have a professional scrubbing system.

My way is effective and if you want to be 100% sure, you can evaporate down the neutralised solution rather than an acidic nitric that will produce NOX fumes. Now they really are serious.

You then collect any minor salts that redissolved following evaporation and you’ve dealt with no toxic fumes.

I have advised on a way of avoiding this quite effectively and have been accused of misinformation, again. I’m getting sick of it. And other people have even commented and I’ve defended it.

Anyway, carry on boiling down your large pots of nitric waste and don’t listen to me as I consistently spread misinformation across the forum apparently.

 

[butcher]

You wasted your money if the professional told you to bring your toxic salts to pH7 and dump them in your garden. I truly doubt He will willingly claim liability and will take the ramifications involved for what you are doing with his advice and with your toxic waste in your garden.

metal hydroxides and carbonates can be toxic.
Metals in many of the chemical forms we work with are toxic in acids, salts, hydroxides, oxides...
Just because we change the pH does not make them safe.

Study to gain the understanding for yourself, stop dumping your solutions and toxic salts in your garden, stop dumping your contaminated copper powders in the trash, Gain an understanding of the chemistry involved before giving advice to others of how to deal with toxic waste.

Unless your professional speaks for himself here, I say you did not understand what he is saying, or he did not understand you...

 

[Jmk88]

No I think it needs to be taken into context.

Dumping toxic solutions is one thing, using neutralised water to water plants is another. I did not say my consultant advised me to do that. He didn’t.

If I have the choice over boiling down nitric or water with hydroxides, I know what I’m choosing.

But again, I’m full of misinfo so no need to listen to anything I say!

I think it’s quite clear what Dylan was asking.

But yes as you can see from my plants, my wonderful garden, my soil testing and all the healthy wonderful trees around me and greenage that as you say butcher, I’m clearly “pouring off toxic solutions” into the ground.

I give up. I have better things to spend my energy on.

 

[kurtak]

Adding a base like hydroxide or bicarbonate, to my understanding produces copper hydroxides which again, are not considered toxic in solid form.

Maybe I’m wrong.

Sorry Jmk88 but yes you are wrong (no "maybe" about it)

Copper is most definitely on the list of 7 toxic metals

In drinking water it is considered toxic at levels of more the 1.3 PPM (1.3 mg per liter)

Copper hydroxide CAN NOT simply be put in the trash & sent to the land fill - that is because as a hydroxide it is FAR more soluble then actual copper metal (due to acids in the soil) - if the EPA catches you they "will" bust you

Here is a link to what wiki says about copper poisoning

:arrow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity

For what it is worth - a member of this forum "died" - "recently" due to (at least in part) copper poisoning - due to his improper handling of copper waste from refining - he was only in his mid 50s when he died

The doctors were trying to de-toxify the high levels of copper in him but the damage of the high copper levels was already done & to late for the attempts to de-toxify to work

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

Copper dissolved in acidic solutions should be cemented with iron FIRST

The iron solution can then be treated with hydroxide to drop the iron

Kurt

 

[Jmk88]

Hi Kurt,

Yes I completely agree with you and I’m really not saying that I pour away copper hydroxide in bulk volumes! That’s honestly not all what I meant!

And I do not really throw most of my copper in the trash either. Maybe the odd stained filter paper but that’s about it.

Once I’ve precipitated it’s I dissolve it in hcl. I cement it with iron as you say. Then melt my copper down. As you’ve probably noted from my past posts.

I don’t believe the water I use for my plants has any copper contaminants at all. I know it doesn’t as I’ve boiled so many test pots of the water down!

Again, I think the point I’m trying to make, for whatever reason, is being overlooked.

If you are boiling down nitrate for the purpose of waste disposal, treating with a base, filtering, and then going from there is a much safer and environmentally friendly way of dealing with waste. Is that not agreed?

 

[Jmk88]

What exactly will I get “busted” for? Why am I being made out to be a big villain?

I don’t recall once saying “throw every bit of copper hydroxide into your general trash bin, that’s what I do”. You may indeed bag this up and if you dispose of it correctly, which I assumed Dylan was doing if he’s doing it with nitrate also, then what are you doing that’s wrong? To be clear, I DO NOT DISPOSE OF HYDROXIDES IN MY GARDEN OR MY GENERAL WASTE. That’s not once what I’ve said.

So first it was my water contaminating my thriving garden, now it’s cos I dump en masse toxic copper solutions? I think this place really does have a nasty spiteful atmosphere to be frank.

I think I’ve reached a point where I have taken all I need to from the forum. Let’s be real the issue here is someone without a green or yellow name tag has issued advice, which, if you look at almost every post where that happens, the discussions descend into hypothetical extreme circumstances from the same old suspects which in all honesty, completely contradicts their statements to be here to help newbies.

People literally proceed on things people have never said. Assuming the absolute worst and stinking of doing nothing but trying to discredit people having an opinion.

Funny how we’re nearly a dozen messages past my point of the benefits of hydroxides in water or copper in nitrate being boiled and no one has once commented on that.

Is that because it would be admitting I’m correct?

 

[jarlowski1]

What exactly will I get “busted” for? Why am I being made out to be a big villain?

I don’t recall once saying “throw every bit of copper hydroxide into your general trash bin, that’s what I do”. You may indeed bag this up and if you dispose of it correctly, which I assumed Dylan was doing if he’s doing it with nitrate also, then what are you doing that’s wrong? To be clear, I DO NOT DISPOSE OF HYDROXIDES IN MY GARDEN OR MY GENERAL WASTE. That’s not once what I’ve said.

So first it was my water contaminating my thriving garden, now it’s cos I dump en masse toxic copper solutions? I think this place really does have a nasty spiteful atmosphere to be frank.

I think I’ve reached a point where I have taken all I need to from the forum. Let’s be real the issue here is someone without a green or yellow name tag has issued advice, which, if you look at almost every post where that happens, the discussions descend into hypothetical extreme circumstances from the same old suspects which in all honesty, completely contradicts their statements to be here to help newbies.

People literally proceed on things people have never said. Assuming the absolute worst and stinking of doing nothing but trying to discredit people having an opinion.

Funny how we’re nearly a dozen messages past my point of the benefits of hydroxides in water or copper in nitrate being boiled and no one has once commented on that.

Is that because it would be admitting I’m correct?

You should be able to have your waste solution tested to see what contaminates it contains. You may find a local university that will run a sample and be able to analytically tell you what you have and they most likely won't charge you. I am sure you will find that you don't want to be watering your garden with this and suggesting it to someone is simply not the safest or smartest thing to do.

 

[Jmk88]

Jeezeus. And here comes the cavalry.

I paid a bloody waste consultant for that!!! We have boiled down over a dozen times to satisfy my concerns.

Reinforced with resting strips.

No one suggested to water their garden with it. But I know for sure the water I have is not contaminated at all. Fact. But you seem to just be like stick records on repeat.

You lot need to stop going for peoples necks all the time. Again no comment on the boiling down of nitric compared to hydroxides in water.

Actually just laughable.

 

[Jmk88]

The only thing toxic I do.... is engage in discussions with such people here.

Toxic waste isn’t the only dangerous thing, toxic people are just as bad. Both kill you slowly.

 

[butcher]

Why get upset when someone disagrees with you or tells you do not understand?
Is it not your point of being here, to learn?
How will you ever learn when you are always arguing with those who are trying to help you learn.

If you believe you know more and disregard good instructions or advice you are restricting your ability to learn better.

why argue with those who have been studying this for many years, something you have only begun to learn yourself, or something you have not learned or completely understand yet?

Maybe they see something you do not, instead of blindly arguing, would it not be better to spend your time researching to see if they understand or can see something you cannot or do not see?






Just because you change the pH of your acid solutions does not mean you have removed all of the toxic metal salts, toxic metal salts can remain in a solution at almost any pH range.

Note at PH 7 many toxic metal ions still remain in the solution as even after you bring your solution to pH 7, metal ions such as silver, iron cadmium, chromium, zinc, nickel, lead, as well as any nitrate, chlorides sulfates or other salts of the acids used.

Although we can use pH adjustments in the process of treating our waste treatment to lower its toxicity to a somewhat less toxic level safer for the environment so that we can safely dispose of them. we remove these metals at different ranges of pH to get the most of these metals out of solution that we can.

This is why we bring our pH up above neutral 7, to where more of these toxic metal ions can be removed from the solution.

Say you have a mixed waste acid solution,.

We can cement precious metal values from the solution by using copper metal letting it settle decant the solution after removing values we can cement out the bulk of the copper ions from solution using iron metal (which will also help to reduce other metal ions to elemental form.

At this point, we still have many different toxic metal ions in solution.
Adjusting the pH to neutral pH7 will precipitate the iron ions as insoluble hydroxide along with some other metal ions,

The saltwater solution may look clear at this point because most of the metals ions that color the solution have been removed.

Do not fool yourself by the looks of this colorless water-like looking solution it will still hold many colorless toxic metal ions in solution.

bringing the pH to around pH10 will then precipitate more of the dangerous metal ions and we can remove these hydroxides.
After decanting we can then lower the pH back to pH7 by adding acid, here again, some more of the toxic metal salts will precipitate and can be removed.

Here we are left with a solution that is still not "Safe", but most of the major toxic metals have been removed from this saltwater solution of chlorides, nitrates, sulfates, or whatever other anions from the acids or chemicals used were, it is at least safe enough to dispose of.

The metal precipitates are still very dangerous and can be water-soluble.

I go a step further than what we normally recomend when discussing waste disposal
I roast my hydroxide salts to form less soluble oxides before disposal, I also evaporate my solutions to salts.

I normally find a use or reuse most of my byproducts so I can also minimize the amount of waste generated that needs to be treated.

My copper nitrate solutions I do not consider waste after silver removal, I consider it a valuable chemical reagent I can find many uses for such as in a recovery method, or make other useful reagents out of them like nitric acid...

 

[butcher]

if you have a debate or an argument then take it out back to the debate section, so you are not ruining this thread with such a stupid argument for others wishing to learn how to properly deal with their waste.

 

[Jmk88]

Butcher with respect, being compared ethically to a drug dealer, putting “pregnant women” at risk, destroying my environment and then encouraging others to do the same is by no stretch of the imagination someone throwing a tantrum when they take objection to those accusations. I’m sick of the constant negative energy I see here that’s aimed at anyone outside the weird little circle. It’s like a weird men’s club.

You are basing your whole argument on something I did not say and ignoring the points I’ve made time and time again. I have boiled my waters down and they have been professionally tested with strips.

I know they do not contain metals. Literally know this.

I would say someone in my profession probably isn’t adverse to researching.

And if you really want to get into it, hydroxide waste is lawfully classed on quantities that are disposed over time frames which is the assessment used to determine whether it would need to go to a toxic waste site. I would advise anyone reading that unless you have a very very large dustbin, you will likely be ok. However I do not throw copper away.

I deal with contaminated sites to develop day in day out, that’s what’s making me laugh. Nickel, copper, asbestos. regular things I deal with and design out or around. This is something I’ve studied since I was 17. I’m paid a very good wage to do it. I have a honours degree engineering.... guess what butcher, a large part of that is understanding ground behaviour and believe it or not, includes contamination.

Unbelievable. Sheer arrogance.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

You seem to have a short memory about what you've said.

I don’t recall once saying “throw every bit of copper hydroxide into your general trash bin, that’s what I do”.

I know in the U.K. copper doesn’t need to be treated as toxic waste so as long as you have it in solid form, ie oxides, you can just bag it up and dispose?

While you may not have said "throw it in your general trash bin" in exactly those words, that's what most of us do with anything that doesn't need to be treated as toxic waste.

No one suggested to water their garden with it.

Once I’ve got my silver chloride out I just add bicarbonate till I get a neutral Ph, water, filter through a 1l Büchner flask and collect all oxides and then just use the water for my garden.

If you'd read this entire thread, you might understand what people are trying to tell you.

Dave

 

[Jmk88]

Yes I do that Dave but did I advise someone else to?

Yes unless you are meeting the required volumes consistently over an intermittent time frame you would need to register it as waste. I can advise you that copper flashings are regularly disposed of in general building waste. But I only work on large scale construction for 9 hours a day so again, probably best to dismiss everything and anything I say.

I doubt the chap is creating such volumes. I may be wrong.

In any case like I said I feel it’s time to bid farewell to the forum. I feel nothing but negative energy whenever I participate or speculate and to be blunt, nothing you lot know isn’t in Hoke anyway.

I’ll ask KA driver when I need real help. My man should be running this place anyway.