consolidation of Loss Gold thread

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You also will have gold in the silver chlorides in addition to the chunks that you removed. Have you reduced the silver chlorides to metal and melted them?
No,We have not yet converted silver chloride to metal.

I am not really understanding what all of your numbers in parentheses mean
Finally we have 68.18 ounce

We have undissolved 0.56 ounce

Gold recovered : 68.74 ounce

Starting weight : 68.96 ounce

Gold Not obtained: 0.22 ounce


Yield without AgCl and cementation:99.68%
 
One question I forgot, and Orvi asked this but it was not answered. You refer to this material as karat and the XRF results do approximate 18 karat gold, but I am getting the distinct impression that this is not karat gold jewelry because of the cadmium. And the silver is very low for karat as well. Is there something here you are not telling us?
Gold scrap comes from a place that does not make 750 gold with standard ingots.
Instead, they make 750-carat gold by melting the previous scrap. In scrap, cadmium is used to weld gold pieces. They also use less silver because of the price
 
You have never given us details about the flocculant you are using but you are now having iron issues in your fine gold. You do know there are iron based flocculants used for settling. After hearing some of the other advice the manufacturer of the equipment gave you, is it possible you are using an iron floc?

The iron-based flocculants include ferric chloride, ferric sulfate, ferrous sulfate, and ferric chloride sulfate.

What type of floc are you using?
Unfortunately!!! the manufacturer does not respond. I asked him three times.
Now I have a sample of white powder not dissolved in water. I can test that white powder. Just remember to mention it is used in diapers. Maybe Sodium polyacrylate.!!!
 
We performed a new refining operation and applied some of the recommendations mentioned in this forum.

Obviously we could not implement all the recommendations due to device problems (until they are fixed soon)

I try to explain the process step by step, with the changes applied in each step



We prepared a reliable feed with the following analysis:

Au:755.4

Ag:57.4

Cu:164

Zn:11.2

Fe:0.6

Ni:4.8

Cd:6.4



Feed weight 2859.8 gr. equivalent to 750 carat.

Melting and Flaking :

We melted all the scrap in one step (for the homogeneity of the percentage of silver in the gold beads), then we emptied the melt into water at 2 ° C and flake it well. Then we dried and weighed. 2.2 grams of gold was not obtained after smelting and flaking operations. I must say that we used boric acid before melting to cover the graphite crusible.



Scrap digestion , Gas purification with scrubbers:

According to the calculations, we should add 2.4 lit nitric acid and 9.8 lit hydrochloric acid.

First we added 8 liters of HCl and 1 liter of HNo3. After about an hour, we added another 1 liter of nitric. After one hour, we added 0.5 liters of HNo3 and 1.8 liters of HCl.

We did not use hydrogen peroxide in this reaction, but in the past we added it using a dosing pump.



After an hour of reaction, we turned on the Tumbler rotating.



The reaction subsided after about 4 hours and 30 minutes. The amount of undissolved seeds was 23.15 gr.



Scrubbers:


Fortunately, we have removed ammonia from the scrubbers. It was great.

We have four scrubber towers that pump water from two tanks to purify gases. We set the pH in the first tank to 10.5 with a dosing pump and a concentrated caustic soda solution. We also manually set the second tank of scrubbers to ph 10.5.

At the beginning of the reaction we had some fume at the end of the chimney, but by adjusting the airfan flow with driver, all the fumes was removed completely. When the airfan motor frequency was between 9 and 15, we had no odor or fumes in the chimney.

When the frequency was set above 25, we had some odor and steam at the end of the chimney.

When the frequency was less than 8, gas was released into the room.

We set the frequency at 18 at the peak of the reaction and 10 when the reaction calmed down.



Diluting, Cooling and Filtering AgCl:



After the reaction subsided, we added 3 liters of ice and allowed the solution to cool. We did not add extra water at this stage. (In the past we used to add water).

Unfortunately we could not modify the previous filters here. But we used a fabric filter and two paper filters to cover the gaps.

(In the case of gold filtration, we did better, we filtered with the italimpianti filter, I will explain later)
We filtered the solution and the silver chloride remained. We washed the Tumbler and valves completely.

Rinse the silver chloride with cold water until the soluble stannous chloride test is negative.



We have not removed the cylindrical filter yet, the stannous test was negative, the color of the filter was not gray, ie the silver chloride was filtered.



We also collected unresolved gold beads.

23,15 gr.



We wash the silver chloride filter and store it in gallons of chloride with some water.



DeNOxx:
(we could not heat the solution, so we could not use sulfamic acid)

After the clear golden green solution was transferred to the first tank, we added a little water. Then we slowly added the urea and stir it.

We added about 600 gr.of urea.

At first it was completely reactive and solvable. Finally, the urea seeds reached the bottom of the tank, so that it felt unresolved in the bottom of the tank. (But we still have doubts about the amount of urea seen by the reaction)



Precipitation:
We know the best precipitator is so2 gas, and the next option is smb. We prepared ourselves to use SMB, unfortunately we did not use it in this process for two reasons, first, our tanks do not have a chimney for 24-hour ventilation, our first tank does not have a mixer with shaft and propeller. After making the changes, we will definitely use smb.



Unfortunately we had to use hydrazine. But this time we used much less. We dissolved one liter of hydrazine in one liter of distilled water.

First, we added 500 cc to the solution and mixed it well. After a few minutes, we added another 500 cc and mixed well. We took a sample from the solution and performed a stannous test. The sample became completely dark. Then we added another 400 cc and mixed, even moving the settled gold particles. After 15 minutes and the particles settle. We tested the solution again, this time it darkened less but it was positive again. The color of the solution had changed from golden green to blue-green, but we were not sure. We added some precipitate again, it did not react when added, but reacted by stirring a small amount. We did the stannous test again, it was as dark as the previous test but like a semi-dark cloud, not black and purple.



(We have doubts about the diagnosis of Stanus chloride test. Because the sample is blue and green. When we add a drop of Stanus chloride, a semi-dark cloud forms after a few seconds, but the blue color is still visible)



Add a little flocculant, mix well and leave for 30 minutes.



Gold Filtering :



At this point we did not use incomplete filters. We applied the italimpianti filter according to the photo. We used two paper filters and closed the filter with a rubber band around it.

First we drained the salt solution of the base metals. When the gold sponge appeared, we started rinsing with hot pressed water in the tank. The gold sponge was drained slowly and hot water was passed over the gold several times. We kept the diaphragm pump on for about 30 minutes. The gold sponge dried a bit. (According to photo)



XRF Pure Gold:



We took some samples of gold sponge to test with Xrf .

The result of the analysis:

Au:998.8

Pt:1.1

Ag:0.0

Cu:0.0

(We did not have platinum in the initial feed analysis.)



Drying and melting:



This time we dried the gold sponge with tow induction furnace. Fill the tow graphite crucible , after drying, turn off the furnace, add again, turn on the furnace, dry , and so on.

We did not add any flux.



One of the crucible was new. Another used.

We performed several XRF tests after melting.



1) XRF sample of new crucible:

Au:999.4

Ag:0.6



2)XRF sample of used crucible:

Au:999.3

Ag:0.4

Cu:0.1

Fe:0.23



3) When I focused with XRF on the surface contaminated areas of the molten sample:

Au:968

Fe:29.6 !!!!!!

Cr: 1.9

W:4.9

Ru: 0.3

Zn:0.4



The discovery of iron surprised me. We did not dry the sponge with a steel container. Pure gold contact before melting was only with a steel spoon to fill the crucible.

Is iron used in the production of graphite crucible?



We melted the gold again with some silver, to the 999 carat. A very small amount of impurity was observed on the molten surface during melting. It was shiny but not perfect. When draining the melt, add as much pinch of potassium nitrate and borax.





Accounting:



Total gold obtained without gold trapped in silver chloride and soluble cement:


Finally we have 2122.65 gr (999)

We have undissolved 23.15 gr (755)

Gold recovered : 2850.67 gr (750)

Starting weight : 2859.8 gr (750)

Gold Not obtained: 9.13


Yield without AgCl and cementation:99.68



Cementation:

We are preparing the second and third tanks for solution cementing with copper plates and air flow (according to 4metal recommendations). After finishing a few refining operations, we want to use them.

Before the hydroxide tank, we had two cylindrical tanks and two waste water tanks. We want to make cement with copper plates in the cylindrical tanks.

Also cement with atomize copper powder in tanks with mixers and air pipes.

We are equipping them.

Obviously, the cement report is completed after a few operations to increase the solution.



Our solution has not yet reached the filter press stage, but we have adjusted the pressure of the hydraulic filter jack until no liquid escapes.

We connected the filter press to the air for drying the hydroxides.

The waste water report will be completed.

Thanks for the report of your operation. Few things I will point out:

1. Melting loss occur, and it is due to oxidation of some base metals in the melt - likewise that unfortunate cadmium. Use a good ventilation and respirator when melting this feed. Cadmium will burn in the air, even in melts like this. It produce brown or brownish "smoke" or webs. Very toxic stuff.

2. There will be some issues regarding your hydrazine precipitation of gold. I understand that it could be hard to see the difference between the "precipitates and colours" when not trained. But gold in solution is black or violet coloured. Only. You also have copper in solution - so SnCl2 can also reduce Cu2+ into Cu+ and create complex compounds of copper which are dark coloured, but not black or violet. Rather brownish colour.

Eventually, if you will do the test on white plastic spoon with drop of gold solution (with copper) and SnCl2, you will see that the brownish colour will eventually go to colourless, as all copper will be reduced.

You need to get completely familiar with SnCl2 test. You can also prepare training samples your own - like take one grain of gold and 10 grains of copper, dissolve in AR and test. Observe. Then dilute. Test again. Then drop that little ammount of gold, do the test again. Observe. Etc :)

I suspect the hydrazine could be lower percentage, or just it act in different way as precipitant, that I do not know. I will say it must be clearly evident when hydrazine is reducing gold - as it evolve N2 gas. Does the solution produce bubbles also after the last addition of hydrazine ?

3. Flocculent, as 4metals pointed out, could be iron based. Not a big issue, since you will be melting gold anyway and it will slag out. There are plenty of flocculents in the market, like aluminium or organic-based ones, which does not harm your gold purity. But that is true also with iron.

4. I am curious how much precipitate you get after copper cementation. If some values made it past hydrazine precipitation, it would be clear how much. But majority of your gold would be locked in AgCl filtered precipitate - that is my bet. Try to pick a sample of AgCl and dissolve it in ammonia (just a gram or so). If there is locked gold, it would be very evident, since it won´t dissolve.

I think you make a steady progress. Accounting to the gold locked in AgCl, also some retrieved in cementation, that 9g loss will shrink :) much better than in the beginning. We will steadily get it where it should end.
 
Gold scrap comes from a place that does not make 750 gold with standard ingots.
Instead, they make 750-carat gold by melting the previous scrap. In scrap, cadmium is used to weld gold pieces. They also use less silver because of the price
Ah, now I see. I thought cadmium is excluded from all gold welding alloys... And yeah, it is cheaper than silver :) and lower the melting point of alloy. So now I get it. But I am just curious where they could find so much 18K jewellery. I doubt that in EU, there is that much 18K circulating.
 
I have never, or don't know if anyone else has ever, used an XRF to shoot a molten pool of gold or any other molten metal for that matter. But it seems to me, that a device that measures secondary fluorescent energy that is emitted from an X-ray source just possibly gets it's numbers mixed up when it's looking at a sample that's glowing white and around 2000ºF above ambient temperature?

Is this like a thing????? Using XRF on molten metals in a crucible? How many of our members do this?
Testing the melt sample ??? !!!
Maybe it's misunderstood, I never thought about it at all.
I meant testing the contaminated particles that stuck to the sample.(To detect the contaminating element)
 
You need to get completely familiar with SnCl2 test. You can also prepare training samples your own - like take one grain of gold and 10 grains of copper, dissolve in AR and test. Observe. Then dilute. Test again. Then drop that little ammount of gold, do the test again. Observe. Etc
Very useful , good idea
Does the solution produce bubbles also after the last addition of hydrazine ?
In the last step of adding, we did not have bubbles. When we did sttiring, we had a little bit.
There are plenty of flocculents in the market, like aluminium or organic-based ones, which does not harm your gold purity
Please tell me the exact brand name or Chemical name .
I'm not sure about the manufacturer and the his materials offered.
 
Very useful , good idea

In the last step of adding, we did not have bubbles. When we did sttiring, we had a little bit.

Please tell me the exact brand name or Chemical name .
I'm not sure about the manufacturer and the his materials offered.
I dont know how quick hydrazine is in precipitating gold - I just heard that it is fairly good precipitant for gold from more experienced refiners. So I trust them in this way. But it is possible that only the establishing the equilibrium takes more time. But that shouldn´t be an issue - since you left gold to settle for enough time.

To the flocculent, we used simple pool stuff - aluminium sulfate, or magnesium sulfate. But we hardly need any in refining, so my experience with exact brands and compositions isn´t the best.
 
O.K. I'm getting a little confused here. Is he using a floc in two different places? One for settling after precipitation and another for waste treatment. I've experimented with Gelatin for silver refining after precipitation, but i've also used Sodium polyacrylate for the waste stream. Two totally different processes. And how much of this are you using at a time?
 
Very useful , good idea

In the last step of adding, we did not have bubbles. When we did sttiring, we had a little bit.

Please tell me the exact brand name or Chemical name .
I'm not sure about the manufacturer and the his materials offered.
you need to make samples like these for all metals. I did mine few years back for Pt and Pd because I wanted to see how much PGMS left in the solution and if it is worth going after or not. I suggest you make them for gold to start with. digest a know amount, take a sample, dilute it and take more samples. you can guess pretty good how much metal is in the solution left..
 

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Gold Refinery,
Attached is a spreadsheet for you to fill out.
some of the numbers you have posted make no sense such as
Gold recovered : 68.74 ounce

Starting weight : 68.96 ounce
you only lost .22 ounces in processing?

fill in the yellow boxes (everything else is protected so you cannot accidentally change formulas)

line 2. starting weight for refining. this is the weight of scrap you melted and shotted and dried
line 4 this is the assay of the gold, you have said .750 and .7554. it is one or the other.
line 6 weight of all of the refined gold melted
line 8 weight of the undissolved metal caught and separated from the Silver Chloride (it is best if you melt this into a button. Do you have a torch?)
line 10. the XRF reading of the undissolved button you just made
line 12 the program calculates this
line 14 the weight of the silver chlorides reduced and melted into a bar
line 16 the XRF result for gold in the silver bar
line 18 the program calculates this
line 20 this is the weight of the gold you refined and melted plus the fine gold in the undissolved gold beads plus the gold in the reduced Silver Chloride bar you melted (summed up by the program)

cell G4 is the ounces expected from the start weight times the assay result.

with all of these numbers together the sheet will do the math and we will be talking about the same thing (we can hope!)

this program uses 31.1034 grams per troy ounce in the calculations

I think part of what is going on here is a language thing. Let's get the numbers straight first then we will know the losses you speak of without confusion.
 

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Gold Refinery,
Attached is a spreadsheet for you to fill out.
some of the numbers you have posted make no sense such as

you only lost .22 ounces in processing?

fill in the yellow boxes (everything else is protected so you cannot accidentally change formulas)

line 2. starting weight for refining. this is the weight of scrap you melted and shotted and dried
line 4 this is the assay of the gold, you have said .750 and .7554. it is one or the other.
line 6 weight of all of the refined gold melted
line 8 weight of the undissolved metal caught and separated from the Silver Chloride (it is best if you melt this into a button. Do you have a torch?)
line 10. the XRF reading of the undissolved button you just made
line 12 the program calculates this
line 14 the weight of the silver chlorides reduced and melted into a bar
line 16 the XRF result for gold in the silver bar
line 18 the program calculates this
line 20 this is the weight of the gold you refined and melted plus the fine gold in the undissolved gold beads plus the gold in the reduced Silver Chloride bar you melted (summed up by the program)

cell G4 is the ounces expected from the start weight times the assay result.

with all of these numbers together the sheet will do the math and we will be talking about the same thing (we can hope!)

this program uses 31.1034 grams per troy ounce in the calculations

I think part of what is going on here is a language thing. Let's get the numbers straight first then we will know the losses you speak of without confusion.
4metals,
I should mention that the assay of the insolubles should be slightly more than the beginning feed stock assay. in 14k lots, if the undissolved pieces are very small we see around 68%. if the pieces are large and intact it it would be close to the original feedstock assay. So technically the accountability of the sheet must be slightly better than 99.75..
 
Instead, they make 750-carat gold by melting the previous scrap. In scrap, cadmium is used to weld gold pieces. They also use less silver because of the price
Here in the US cadmium is a metal we try to avoid. If you have cadmium in a lot you ship to a major refiner anything over 0.01% will cost you extra and over 1% they won’t accept it.

For the safety of your employees melting scrap with cadmium as high as you see it on the XRF you should have a good exhaust over your melt furnace and for the environment you will be best served having a bag house to collect those webs of Cadmium that come off the melt.

Cadmium is nasty. Dare I ask if you have good melt exhaust?
 
I should mention that the assay of the insolubles should be slightly more than the beginning feed stock assay. in 14k lots, if the undissolved pieces are very small we see around 68%. if the pieces are large and intact it it would be close to the original feedstock assay. So technically the accountability of the sheet must be slightly better than 99.75..
This is true. The numbers I put in the sheet were just to check the math. And the reason I made the sheet was to be sure we aren’t chasing phantom ounces.

As you know Emre the base metals leach out before the precious in karat so any undissolved chunks do increase in assay. That is why he would be best served melting the beads together into a nice button for the XRF.
 
Here in the US cadmium is a metal we try to avoid. If you have cadmium in a lot you ship to a major refiner anything over 0.01% will cost you extra and over 1% they won’t accept it.

For the safety of your employees melting scrap with cadmium as high as you see it on the XRF you should have a good exhaust over your melt furnace and for the environment you will be best served having a bag house to collect those webs of Cadmium that come off the melt.

Cadmium is nasty. Dare I ask if you have good melt exhaust?
we purchased some silver electrical contacts with 80% ag 5% Cd in it. when we melted it smoked that yellow poisonous gas soo much we almost had to evacuate. I dont buy anything that had Cd in it.. I am very surprised UK allows Cd in jewelery solder...
 
Here in the US cadmium is a metal we try to avoid. If you have cadmium in a lot you ship to a major refiner anything over 0.01% will cost you extra and over 1% they won’t accept it.

For the safety of your employees melting scrap with cadmium as high as you see it on the XRF you should have a good exhaust over your melt furnace and for the environment you will be best served having a bag house to collect those webs of Cadmium that come off the melt.

Cadmium is nasty. Dare I ask if you have good melt exhaust?
Even if he did not have it before, I am sure he has it now with that nasty smoke..)))))))
 
I would bet it doesn’t. Nickvc would know best about this. As may Orvi.
i have been reading this whole thing for two days now. It still seems a bit off. I am not sure why he even bothered with this? will he have enough incoming metal? he is not LBMA so it is not easy to sell it public, he may still end up selling to a refinery..
 
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