pH for cementation

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fishaholic5

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I've been running some experiments on cementation using copper from chloride solutions from leaching ore.
At pH 4 I get a silver grey metal plating onto the copper as well as dropping a mix of brown and black powders
At pH 2 I get gold plating out as well as the powders, and the silver grey plating in the last stages of the cementation.
Its not really an issue as it dislodges from the copper when it is used for the next cementation.
Has anyone got any thoughts on the optimum pH for cementation of gold and pgm's from chloride leach solutions?
 

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Do use gloves. Look under your fingernails and on the end of your thumb. That's metal salts right there getting into your system not to mention the acid damage.
 
Cementing metals from solutions using copper, here we are discussing metal ions in solution, a metal ion which if upon the gain of electrons will become a metal atom, if enough of these metal atoms come together we will be able to see them as a metal powder which will gain enough mass to precipitate from solution by gravity.

When we have metal ions in solution and we add a metal atom (or a solid group of metal atoms like a mass or metal bar of pure copper) the copper metal which has all of the electrons in its outer shell) will donate its electron to any metal ion in solution which is lower in reactivity than the copper atom (see your reactivity of metals chart for more details).

So upon a gain of an electron the metal ion in solution becomes a metal with a full shell of electrons.
the copper atom loses electrons and becomes an ion in solution.

Cementing and plating, are actually two different things, although the reaction is the same, or similar.
The name or term cementing comes from cementing silver out of solution where the silver metal powder resembles cement (wet concrete), plating the metal atoms plate the copper).

Note we can also copper observes a corrosion of the copper from salts, carbonates or hydroxides ... which can discolor the copper bar that may or may not be actual metal atoms ...

In "cementing" or displacing a metal in solution with another metal, like cementing silver from solution, some free acid can assist the reaction, it will help in keeping the copper atoms exposed to the silver ions in solution, reactions and bubbles can remove silver from the surface of the copper exposing more copper atoms to more of the silver ions in solution (the silver basically does not plate the copper blocking the copper atom from the silver ions in solution, in some way the bubbles act as we do when we shake the silver from the bass bar, the acid itself can help to take electrons from the copper.

Now let us look at the pH of a solution if we raise the pH we can get closer to hydroxides, this change of pH can even bring metals out of solution as salts, or compounds of metals (depending on what has lowered the pH).

Say we have metal ions in solution just a big soup of poisonous metal ions in a toxic solution (leaching ore produces many different species of the metal ions and toxic compounds depending on its makeup, say we actually did have ions of metals more noble than copper in solution, and we lower the pH, now we can have other salts or compounds of metal in solution, some of which may be coming out of solution by just the change in pH...


I do not see anything "cemented" in your experiment of cementing metals, all I see in the pictures is some cut copper with discoloration, which could be a coating of metal or salts or compounds...

Where are the "cemented" materials (metal powders or salts), these powders will not be coating your copper they will be the powders which come out of solution (basically fall loose from your copper buss bar, and fall to the bottom of the reaction vessel) these powders can be tested to find out what metal or compound, or salt is coming out of solution.

Now you have a coating on the copper, you can brush or scrap off this coating and test it.
Or continue your experiment with different pH until you actually get some cemented metal powders or salts, and test them.

My best guess says, that if you acidify the cement (from the pH 4 solution) much of the salts will go back into solution, as the acid takes electrons from the salts...

Leaching ore with a chloride solution, I surely hope you completely understand the dangers of your experiments, I can see you are struggling with the chemistry, which without an understanding of, in the case of leaching ore can surely lead to an early grave and no gold.
 
butcher said:
Cementing metals from solutions using copper, here we are discussing metal ions in solution, a metal ion which if upon the gain of electrons will become a metal atom, if enough of these metal atoms come together we will be able to see them as a metal powder which will gain enough mass to precipitate from solution by gravity.

When we have metal ions in solution and we add a metal atom (or a solid group of metal atoms like a mass or metal bar of pure copper) the copper metal which has all of the electrons in its outer shell) will donate its electron to any metal ion in solution which is lower in reactivity than the copper atom (see your reactivity of metals chart for more details).

So upon a gain of an electron the metal ion in solution becomes a metal with a full shell of electrons.
the copper atom loses electrons and becomes an ion in solution.

Cementing and plating, are actually two different things, although the reaction is the same, or similar.
The name or term cementing comes from cementing silver out of solution where the silver metal powder resembles cement (wet concrete), plating the metal atoms plate the copper).

Note we can also copper observes a corrosion of the copper from salts, carbonates or hydroxides ... which can discolor the copper bar that may or may not be actual metal atoms ...

In "cementing" or displacing a metal in solution with another metal, like cementing silver from solution, some free acid can assist the reaction, it will help in keeping the copper atoms exposed to the silver ions in solution, reactions and bubbles can remove silver from the surface of the copper exposing more copper atoms to more of the silver ions in solution (the silver basically does not plate the copper blocking the copper atom from the silver ions in solution, in some way the bubbles act as we do when we shake the silver from the bass bar, the acid itself can help to take electrons from the copper.

Now let us look at the pH of a solution if we raise the pH we can get closer to hydroxides, this change of pH can even bring metals out of solution as salts, or compounds of metals (depending on what has lowered the pH).

Say we have metal ions in solution just a big soup of poisonous metal ions in a toxic solution (leaching ore produces many different species of the metal ions and toxic compounds depending on its makeup, say we actually did have ions of metals more noble than copper in solution, and we lower the pH, now we can have other salts or compounds of metal in solution, some of which may be coming out of solution by just the change in pH...


I do not see anything "cemented" in your experiment of cementing metals, all I see in the pictures is some cut copper with discoloration, which could be a coating of metal or salts or compounds...

Where are the "cemented" materials (metal powders or salts), these powders will not be coating your copper they will be the powders which come out of solution (basically fall loose from your copper buss bar, and fall to the bottom of the reaction vessel) these powders can be tested to find out what metal or compound, or salt is coming out of solution.

Now you have a coating on the copper, you can brush or scrap off this coating and test it.
Or continue your experiment with different pH until you actually get some cemented metal powders or salts, and test them.

My best guess says, that if you acidify the cement (from the pH 4 solution) much of the salts will go back into solution, as the acid takes electrons from the salts...

Leaching ore with a chloride solution, I surely hope you completely understand the dangers of your experiments, I can see you are struggling with the chemistry, which without an understanding of, in the case of leaching ore can surely lead to an early grave and no gold.

Thanks for the reply and the health warnings, I am aware of the chemistry.
I have only posted the pics of the plating, the cemented powders are mentioned in the post.
I have been extracting gold from this ore for over 2 years, dropping gold from the solution with ferrous sulfate then cementing out the remaining values with copper.. And yes, I take great care in the processing.
These experiments were simply to compare the results and explore the viability of using copper instead of the ferrous sulfate during the recovery of the precious metals from the leach solution
I am not trying to cement at a high pH, my questions relate to the optimum pH for cementation from an acidic solution to reduce the plating.
 
A couple of pics..
IMG_20180723_150714_094.jpg
This is the cemented powders that have dropped part way through the cementation process. The bubbler has been stopped and the solution stirred to group them to the centre of the bucket
IMG_20180613_195310.jpg
This is filtered powders from the cementation
IMG_20180509_203452.jpg
This is the precipitate from using Ferrous Sulfate for precipitation from the leach
 
Depending on the ore you could well have silver in it so perhaps a nitric leach first which will remove the silver and a lot of base metals and possibly PGMs if they are there and the silver and any PGMs can be cemented using copper, this should make extracting a clean gold product easier.
 
Your filtered powder from cementation looks like iron oxides/hydroxides (rust) to me. Whenever I have cemented gold or PGM:s I have ended up with a black powder, not a yellow clay.

Can you dissolve it in HCl?

What is the assay of the ore? How many grams or ounces per ton? Sorry if you already wrote it, then I missed it.

Göran
 
nickvc said:
Depending on the ore you could well have silver in it so perhaps a nitric leach first which will remove the silver and a lot of base metals and possibly PGMs if they are there and the silver and any PGMs can be cemented using copper, this should make extracting a clean gold product easier.

Thanks Nick,

The ore contains large amounts of Silver as silver halides, as well as Gold, Palladium, Nickel and Iron. There are trace amounts of Cobalt and some other Pgm's.

I'm trying to avoid using nitric for initial recovery. The aim is to achieve a reasonable separation of the gold and silver with easily available chemicals so I can refine them later and to use the silver to continue to finance the project

Grinding to <200mesh and leaching with HCl/bleach in a rotating drum has achieved a pretty good separation so far, using the Ferrous sulfate drops the gold easily.

As everything has to be refined after the initial recovery anyway, this experiment was to see if it was feasible to limit the use of sulfer in precipitants to the refining and reduce the amount of harmful gases from cementing solutions that contain sulfur after precipitating gold.

I'm happy with the results, the plating wasn't something I expected but it isn't an issue
The best results so far have been at pH 2 even though there is more plating onto the copper
 
What does the assay show? Please be specific. Generalities such as “large amounts” and “trace amounts” do not mean much when determining how to properly treat ores, and in many cases can hinder forum members in helping answer your questions.

I think Goran hit the nail on the head. The yellow powder does look a lot like common iron oxides and iron hydroxides, but without accurate assay results it quickly becomes more guesswork than experience for some of us.

Time for more coffee.
 
g_axelsson said:
Your filtered powder from cementation looks like iron oxides/hydroxides (rust) to me. Whenever I have cemented gold or PGM:s I have ended up with a black powder, not a yellow clay.

Can you dissolve it in HCl?

What is the assay of the ore? How many grams or ounces per ton? Sorry if you already wrote it, then I missed it.

Göran

Thanks Goran,

I get a mix of fine yellow gold powder, brown and black powders as the plating on the copper drops off in the next cementation.

Its been rinsed in the filter with hot water and HCl. Its wet in the pic and clumped together, it crumbles to powder as it dries and it doesn't dissolve in HCl.

IMG_20171022_052058_411.jpg

The initial assays on the surface Gossan gave results of over 180kg per ton of Silver, 800 to 1600g per ton of Gold and nearly 10g per ton of Palladium.
The deeper I go, the lower the silver content and the higher the gold content becomes. This is a small gold pipe that was overlooked by miners during the gold rushes here as the silver ores weren't worth the cost of processing at the time.

I'm not asking what i have, just asking whether there is an optimum pH for cementation directly from the leach solutions.

Cheers Wal

Edited to change HCL to HCl
 
Platdigger said:
That is one nice find!

Thanks, its changed my direction considerably.
The ore is very variable, there is a lot of Chorargyrite and bromian Clorargyrite on the surface and more native silver and some sulfides as well as the Gold as I go deeper. I'm only four feet down at the moment.

IMG_20171002_074400_170.jpg

IMG_20171001_101728.jpg
IMG_20171015_140004_056.jpgIMG_20180426_174853_575.jpgIMG_20180511_214239_011.jpg
 
I’m wondering on the make up of your material, with the values are they in metallic form or as sulphides and how do you treat them to make processing possible, also what exactly are you using to dissolve the gold, I presume Hcl and what else?
I’m asking as we have some very clever refiners who may be able to help you fine tune your processing to get maximum yield using what you have easily available.
 
nickvc said:
I’m wondering on the make up of your material, with the values are they in metallic form or as sulphides and how do you treat them to make processing possible, also what exactly are you using to dissolve the gold, I presume Hcl and what else?
I’m asking as we have some very clever refiners who may be able to help you fine tune your processing to get maximum yield using what you have easily available.

Thanks Nick,
The surface ore is highly oxidised, the Silver is mainly as Halides with some native silver, the Gold is mostly microscopic and doesn't respond well to gravity separation.
Deeper in the deposit there is more native metals, some sulfides, more gold and a mixture of the oxidised and halide ore. I expect that as I approach the water table the proportion of sulfides will increase.

At this stage I am only processing the surface ore and stockpiling the rest while I experiment with recovery methods.
I crush the gold bearing material, roast then crush to <200 mesh.
The leach is a HCl /Sodium Hypochlorite mix at a pH of 3 to 4, tumbled in a closed bucket for 24hrs. The ore is leached 3 times. I am still experimenting with leach times but this is working at the moment.
The solution is filtered, diluted and left stand to drop any silver chloride and gas off the free chlorine then precipitated with Ferrous Sulfate.
This is then filtered and washed and the remaining solution cemented with copper.

The ore residue is mostly silver halides and native silver so I'm just converting it with Caustic Soda and sugar at the moment. I will be looking at refining the Silver with a cell once I start smelting larger amounts.

I joined this forum to learn, I've learned a lot from the forum over the last few years and a lot of the methods I use were from my research here.

I'm sure that the best recovery methods will vary depending on the grade and type of ore. Its a small hand mining operation and I grade it as I go, separating the halide rich ore, gold bearing and sulfide containing material.

There is a roasting furnace design I commented on in another post that looks to be suitable for roasting these ores that will allow recovery of any silver chloride volatised during the roasting process

Cheers Wal

Edited to change HCL to HCl
 
Refining the silver in a cell may well produce more gold, I’d certainly take a sample of the silver metal you have melt it and have a gold assay done, if it is only Au 001 you will still get $10000 Australian extra for every ton you mine and for every extra point you add another $10000 :shock:
If you try to sell the hopefully gold bearing silver you will get screwed on the terms for either the gold or silver or both compared to selling it separately once refined.
 
Thanks for adding a bit more details about the ore. Sounds like a very exciting project.

I hope the sample you assayed was a representative sample, those numbers are insane. I've seen even higher numbers in assays but that was for hand picked samples of the richest ore and not for a whole ore body.

I've never leached ore with acid or seen a process for that so I'm of no help there.

As for pH for cementing, the only thing I can think of is not too high so hydroxides forms. Keep it acidic. If the oxidizer is depleted even strong HCl won't put anyy precious metals back in solution... with the exception of palladium. Copper chloride can dissolve palladium.

Göran
 
nickvc said:
Refining the silver in a cell may well produce more gold, I’d certainly take a sample of the silver metal you have melt it and have a gold assay done, if it is only Au 001 you will still get $10000 Australian extra for every ton you mine and for every extra point you add another $10000 :shock:
If you try to sell the hopefully gold bearing silver you will get screwed on the terms for either the gold or silver or both compared to selling it separately once refined.

Thanks for the the advice Nick,
Setting up a cell for refining the silver makes a lot of sense
 
g_axelsson said:
Thanks for adding a bit more details about the ore. Sounds like a very exciting project.

I hope the sample you assayed was a representative sample, those numbers are insane. I've seen even higher numbers in assays but that was for hand picked samples of the richest ore and not for a whole ore body.

I've never leached ore with acid or seen a process for that so I'm of no help there.

As for pH for cementing, the only thing I can think of is not too high so hydroxides forms. Keep it acidic. If the oxidizer is depleted even strong HCl won't put anyy precious metals back in solution... with the exception of palladium. Copper chloride can dissolve palladium.

Göran

Thanks for your help,
That's interesting about the Copper Chloride and Palladium, I may need to explore alterative methods for the recovery there.
The Assay results were the average of 3 random samples from the surface. The ore was much higher in silver than underground.
IMG_20180724_111351_742.jpg
This is much richer Gold bearing material from 4 feet down within the pipe, I have not had it assayed yet.
The excitement hasn't kicked in yet, its been a little surreal so far and the level of secrecy I needed to get to this stage over the last few years helped keep a lid on the "Gold Fever"

Cheers Wal
 
Thanks heaps to everyone for their time and input here, the methods I'm using so far have been a combination of the Newberry Vautin process and some very informative posts by Lazersteve, 4metals, Deano and everyone else on this forum.
Mining and mineral extraction are amazingly complex and the refining is a whole new world.
Hopefully I can become proficient in it with time.

Thanks again for the help
Cheers, Wal
 
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