Basic Platinum Recovery from Catalytic Converters

Hi Everyone,
I have a few questions on Platinum, (PGM's) Recovery from Catalytic Converters. I have just harvested a few Converters from a junk yard. I guess that the converters were handled rough. The converters I have had been struck (bent) by something during the wreck (or after the wreck) they were in, I guess. There is a lot of the honeycomb in these converters that is broken and powdered. I am looking at the best approach to recover the PGM's from these converters.
These converters were passed over by the regular converter buyer's for some reason that I don't yet know. There could be honeycomb or powdered honeycomb missing due to this. I wonder if this is the reason these were passed over by the buyer's?
I am looking at the HCL-CL plus heat method and the AR method. My concern is that the powdered honeycomb will make it hard for the HCL-CL to get to all surface areas of the powdered honeycomb. Same concern with the AR method. Will stirring alone solve this?
Is it best to process/refine the powdered honeycomb and the intact honeycomb seperately? Or is it best just to use the same process to refine both in one batch?
Would like to hear from the members about the pro's and con's of using these two different methods?
Which method do you prefer to use to recover the PGM's from the converters. I have read Hoke's process to refine Platinum. The only thing is that Catalytic Converters weren't around when she wrote her book. What I am finding is each refiner have their own personal favorite way of doing things. Nothing wrong with this but would like to hear from the forum members.
I was told that pre 1993 converters as well as the vehicles made to operate in the State of California has more PGM's on average in them. Is this correct?
I have trained myself with the help of the forum (I think it's best to say the forum trained me) to run a Sulphuric Cell, and to recover gold and silver. I know there is a ton I still don't know but would like to try the recovery of PGM's from Converters.
Thanks for any advice/help in advance.
Oneal 58

Oneal58:

I have just started doing this myself.

It is way more labor intensive than doing gold and silver.

But this is what I know so far:

I have some ceramic honeycombs leaching in HCL/Cl - been in there about 5 days now.

In a seperate batch, I used AR on some beads I bouoght from goldenchild - AR is faster to extract (did it in about 6 hours), but then the whole batch must be settled, be filtered, and the excess nitric removed - it took me 18 hours to evaporate 2.5 liters of liquid - and then crystals began to form and the solution went cloudy on me. - edit spelling -

I have been working on the AR batch for about 3 days now.

The HCl/Cl method takes much longer to do the extraction - my two honeycombs have been sitting in a 5 gallon bucket, inside of a 50 gallon tightly sealed garbage can, for 5 days now - but I am getting positive tests with stannous chloride.

I was adding some clorox the other day and got a tiny wiff of chlorine gas.

I had to sit down - thought I was going to go lights out fo a few seconds - really scared me.

I have heard it said and I can verify that refining gold and silver is childs play compared to platinum group metals.

Hope this is helpful - kadriver

Hi kadriver, old buddy. I have been meaning to give you a call. I just been so busy I haven't got around to it. I hope you are doing fine and family as well.
Thank you for your post Kadriver, please keep me updated on your refine results on the platinum converters. From what I have read, I know you are right. A lot more complicated and envolved to get the PGM's from converters than just refining Gold or Silver.
Once you have the procedure worked out I really would appreciate you doing what you did on the gold filled refine procedure. Kadriver I learned a ton from your step by step post of your refine of the gold filled jewelry. Another post like that one on the Platinum Refine from Catalytic Converter Honeycombs would not only be greatly appreciated but is truely needed.
As you know you get bits and pieces here and there on the Converter refines. Putting it all together the (right way) is what is hard. I think I know you well enough that I can say waiting that long for a recovery is something you and I both have a hard time doing. One thing I guess we could do is figure out just how many days it takes to complete a recovery and have a bucket with a converter recovery going for the number of days it takes to complete a refine. :lol: I would have a hard time waiting 7 or ever how many days it would take to finish a refine with HCL/CL up and I am sure you do as well. Would love to know which refining method you are leaning towards adapting for your favorite method?
Please keep me informed of your progress Kadriver.
I rebuilt salvage cars partime at one time in my life, believe it or not. I had the dealers license to buy wrecks from salvage yards. I made many friends in the business. I think I will call on some of those friends to get converters from. So if I can get the system (recovery of PGM's) from converters down pat I think I would have a steady supply of converters. So, I don't think I have any other choice but to move to a (PM's) refining method that I can keep something to keep me busy instead of waiting a week or so on each refine. Kadriver did you powder the honeycombs before doing the extraction or did you leave the honeycomb in tact? Aren't the honeycombs platinum plated after they are made. Seems it would be best to leave the honeycombs intact, just to strip/work on the outside plating? Like I said, I have no choice with some of the material I have, it's already powdered.
As you are probably finding out more and more people are holding onto their Karat Gold now. I could probably find the Karat Gold but I would be on the road working auctions, flea markets, antique malls, shows, yard sales, Etc;, constantly. I did that for nearly 20 years and have logged all the miles on the road I want to or am able to. More than my share for sure.
So please keep me updated on your progress Kadriver, looking forward to your post.
P.S.
Isn't a form of the Chlorine gas is what's used in the Gas Chambers during executions? I am glad you are OK?
Thanks, Oneal

I have only read of the process so take what I write here with that in mind...
Ammens suggests to incinerate and powder the honeycomb, prior to attempting wet recovery of PGMs.

Oneal, cyanide is used in the gas chamber. It attaches itself to the hemoglobin preventing O2 absorption. IIRC

Hi Publius, thanks for your post. Publius I have read that (powdered) also somewhere but can't find too much elaboration on the method. I am sure it's out there, I just need to refine my searching some I guess. I didn't know about the cyanide gas in the execution chambers. Thanks for that bit of knowledge. When I first started this venture of refining I looked at cyanide for my plating tank that I just piddled with some years back. I am glad I decided against the cyanide route. Thanks Publius for your post.
Oneal58

Oneal58:

I have started the process with a few photos in the PMG index on the forum "Other Metals" Platinum, Palladium, Rhodium ....

For now I am just trying to get to the finish line with a button of pure platinum. Once I get some experience, then I will try and post some photos of the process that I have found that works for me.

lazersteve's DVD titled "Platinum & Palladium Fundamentals" has been very valuable - I have watched it over & over for the last 3 or 4 weeks.

I have 10 more cats (12 if you count the 2 metal foil cats I have not touched) and about 17 pounds of catalytic beads waiting to be processed.

Thanks! - kadriver

I wish you well in this but still lean on the side of buy and sell the convertors. The problems for me are the complex chemistry, managing to leach all the PGMs and then extracting all the dissolved values in the solution from the mass of powders, very similar to doing sweeps, which usually need to be processed twice to get a decent recovery and even then some values remain, the big boys in cat buying extract the substrate, crush, assay and sell to the refiners and having read the threads here on the forum I can see why, unless you can get the cats very cheap on a regular basis I'd find another way to make a living but as a learning experience it's worth the effort.....once.

Hi Kadriver, thank you for your post. Thank everyone for their post, all of them are appreciated. But, I really want to be a little more involved than just the buying and selling of the cats. I don't know why I am like this, the buying and selling sure would be much easier. But no reward there, except for the money, and it's not all about the money. I would be stretching the truth if I said none of it is the money. But also, a huge amount of it is that deep down satisfaction you get after a good refine. Just like I got after trouble shooting a DC-Drive all day long and finally tracking the problem down. It's a feeling that's just hard to explain but that reward is there for me?
Kadriver, I am going to order Steve's Tape today.
I assume you are treating the beads with AR and the Honecomb substrate with HCL/CL. What method are you going to use on the metal foil cats. Is it going to be AR?
Kadriver if you will post the photo's and go through your method of preference it would really be appreciated. It really is a great teaching tool for the beginner. To keep the beginner from doing something stupid. I learn quickly through visual instruction. When I read instructions, I picture them visually. I don't know if this is normal or not? :lol:
I move slowly on the processes involved, even though it may not seem so with my post. I am very careful anytime I get around something that could harm me or someone else. The very first thing I do is take the (someone else) out of the zone). I always check and double check before I make a move. I guess I get this from working with high voltages all my life in the electrical field. You don't get a second chance there and it took my older brother away from our family. I have the greatest respect for electricity as I do the chemicals needed to refine with. I have the very same respect for refining as I did in the electrical field during my career. I appreciate the concern for others from the members of the forum, honestly. A man knows his limits, or should know them. I feel that with the correct instruction and doing my part on the studying this is within my limits.
I hope the forum will help me get through this and I will do my part.
Kadriver, thank you for your help!
Oneal

Oneal58:

I have posted the evaporation of the AR extraction from 1400 grams of cat beads in the "Other Metals" catagory under "Platinum, Palladium, Rhodium..."

Please go to that area to see the process (I don't want to double post).

kadriver

Thanks Kadriver, just getting back in. Thanks for the posting's, I am on my way.
Thanks, Oneal

Hi,

I'm starting to research platinum recovery from catalytic converters, and haven't run any tests or experiments yet. I'd like some advises to start with or not to start with.

Where can i get lazersteve's DVD titled "Platinum & Palladium Fundamentals"?

thank you!

nmcs87 said:

Hi,

I'm starting to research platinum recovery from catalytic converters, and haven't run any tests or experiments yet. I'd like some advises to start with or not to start with.

Where can i get lazersteve's DVD titled "Platinum & Palladium Fundamentals"?

thank you!

Click to expand...

Look in this section for your research;
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=51

And Steve's DVD is on his website;
http://www.goldrecovery.us/

Jim

i'm not sure how good a question this is, but here it is: if i was to gather a large quantity of catalytic converter honeycomb that has been crushed to the rough consistancy of facepowder, anywhere from 2 or more 5gallon buckets full for example, can i then heat it to the melting point of the ceramic and have the molten metal sink to the botom of the crucible i would use?

Newbloodrefiner said:

i'm not sure how good a question this is, but here it is: if i was to gather a large quantity of catalytic converter honeycomb that has been crushed to the rough consistancy of facepowder, anywhere from 2 or more 5gallon buckets full for example, can i then heat it to the melting point of the ceramic and have the molten metal sink to the botom of the crucible i would use?

Click to expand...

Nope. You would need to have a collector metal like copper or silver to do this. Not really worth the effort.

Actually I believe it can be done but you need a plasma arc furnace if I remember correctly and two buckets of powder would not get you a deposit for one..q

if i was to gather a large quantity of catalytic converter honeycomb that has been crushed to the rough constancy of face powder, anywhere from 2 or more 5gallon buckets full for example, can i then heat it to the melting point of the ceramic and have the molten metal sink to the bottom of the crucible i would use?

Click to expand...

Without a plasma arc furnace it isn't happening without a collector.

General rule of thumb you need a 15% meltable metallics content to melt a powder. And then it is best in a rotary furnace. So for someone starting out, the prospect of using a copper collector and electrolytically refining the copper to concentrate the values in the slimes is daunting. And that's before you get into the chemistry of recovery of the PM's in the converters.

Newbloodrefiner said:

i'm not sure how good a question this is, but here it is: if i was to gather a large quantity of catalytic converter honeycomb that has been crushed to the rough consistancy of facepowder, anywhere from 2 or more 5gallon buckets full for example, can i then heat it to the melting point of the ceramic and have the molten metal sink to the botom of the crucible i would use?

Click to expand...

I don't suppose these crushed catalytic converters were in a red box now were they?