Transporting Nitric Acid - Sourcing Metro Detroit Supplier - Legalities - Cost

Small time refiner / jeweler / artist.

I have a large quantity of scrap silver mixed in various alloys.

I need to find a good supplier of nitric in less than drum quantity, but more than bottle....I've seen 13 gallon kegs...that would be perfect, and I imagine I could get it at a reasonable price at that quantity. Technical grade is perfectly acceptable, since from what I can find, I have to further dilute with distilled H2O anyway.

Given that I'm in Metro Detroit, it shouldn't be difficult to find, but I'm more than open to suggestions as well. I do have an LLC that I operate under, but am registered at a residential address. I have plenty of experience handling chemicals safely as I was previously employed in polymer / coating research. Once I move, I will have proper exhaust / ventilation...in fact, everything will be done in a ventilated glove box. You only get one body.

Where my experience falls off is the legalities and bureaucratic red tape with chemicals in greater than glass jug quantity. Is it legal for me to put a jug of nitric in the trunk of my car and drive it home? At what quantity does that end. Do I have to register myself as a purchaser, or my property (obviously an issue for residential property)?

Finally, disposal. After cementing everything out via lye, you end up with just a sludge, which can be dried...but is this considered a hazardous waste that I have to find someone to dispose of correctly? It will very likely have at least cadmium in it given my supply stream. I would have no problem disposing of it so it's "not my problem"...but I'm a bit of an environment guy, so I'm not to excited about doing things in a less than kosher method. Not to say that some kosher methods aren't entirely legal.

The fourth post on this thread is from 4metals, read it, it's one of the best posts on the forum.
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1300&hilit=dealing+with+waste

Jade Scientific should deliver to your place, as long as you have that LLC business name. www.jadesci.com. You'll want to order in the largest quantity practical to cut down on the Hazmat fees, though. 13 gallons (or 40 liters or whatever) will do nicely

Jade still in business? No answer on the phone and website seems to be down.


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snoman701 said:

Jade still in business? No answer on the phone and website seems to be down.

Click to expand...

That's actually a good question. I haven't ordered any nitric since April, and when I couldn't bring their website up when I posted that, I just assumed it was our overzealous firewall. Perhaps they just shuttered or something.

That's too bad--I guess I'll be following this and similar conversations so I can find a new supplier. I have heard people mention Duda Diesel, but I can't remember if they ship to residential areas. A search on the forums should tell you.

Just got an answering machine actually....found a different phone number.


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It will very likely have at least cadmium in it given my supply stream.

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Cadmium is a RCRA metal and it most likely makes your solid wastes hazardous. However since you will have relatively small quantities of the resultant solid sludges, you may be able to take advantage of a program that a lot of cities have. They go by different names, the one I am familiar with is STOP for stop throwing out pollutants. They set up routinely at municipal dumps and allow residents to drop off pollutants, like sludges, old pesticides and other things that most non environment conscious folks would toss in the landfill. Check into that in your area.

And thank you for caring about the environment. I respect that!

As far as transporting the nitric every state is different but the EPA designates 1000 pounds as the reportable quantity for nitric acid. At about 10 pounds per gallon you will be well below the reportable quantity. If you must transport it, do so in a container made to transport nitric acid like the glass bottles packed in styrofoam or the stainless casks for bulk quantities. A 5 gallon bucket with a snap on lid wouldn't pass the kosher test for transporting, even small quantities. You could check with the state for local restrictions if you want to be certain.

Snowman,
http://www.havilandusa.com They will be your source for chemicals. Nitric will be inexpensive from them but the deposit on the 13 gallon stainless keg will be $400.00 and they will want it back in 6 months minimum, so start looking for a stainless container to transfer to. That way you can get your $400.00 back if you don't use it up in that time frame.
http://www.havilandusa.com/downloads/Commodity_Chemicals_final.pdf They also have a list of food grade chemicals.

You will need to be a business and have a commercial or industrial location with a loading dock for them to deliver to. Commercial property in a residential area won't do. Call and tell them to email you new customer paperwork/application.

The only thing I haven't been able to get from them is DMG (Dimethylgloxime) for testing for Pd. I got it from Jade Scientific.

I Won't be in either commercial or industrial location.


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I have commercial property in residential area and they won't deliver here so I have them deliver it to another location and then pick it up from there. Only 2 blocks away.

I considered that option, but right now I can't think of a location where I could have it dropped. Plus I think it would open me up to tons of liability if the other location were to have an accident with it.

Another option-
http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=14782

None of what I have is clean enough. I can take clean scrap to my local refinery that I've used before.


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snoman701 said:

I considered that option, but right now I can't think of a location where I could have it dropped. Plus I think it would open me up to tons of liability if the other location were to have an accident with it.

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There will be no liability issue, all you have to do is ask someone. Low risk in asking right? If your not really ready for chemicals yet I understand based on your first post.

Smack said:

snoman701 said:

I considered that option, but right now I can't think of a location where I could have it dropped. Plus I think it would open me up to tons of liability if the other location were to have an accident with it.

Click to expand...

There will be no liability issue, all you have to do is ask someone. Low risk in asking right? If your not really ready for chemicals yet I understand based on your first post.

Click to expand...

Per the above underlined --- or as I always say --- you don't know if the answer to the question is no - if you don't ask the question :mrgreen:

Kurt

Jade is still open.

Smack said:

snoman701 said:

I considered that option, but right now I can't think of a location where I could have it dropped. Plus I think it would open me up to tons of liability if the other location were to have an accident with it.

Click to expand...

There will be no liability issue, all you have to do is ask someone. Low risk in asking right? If your not really ready for chemicals yet I understand based on your first post.

Click to expand...

There is a huge liability issue. If they drop a package containing hazardous chemicals and someone is injured, the liability is first on them, and the first thing their insurance lawyers are going to do is sue you.

snoman701 said:

Smack said:

snoman701 said:

I considered that option, but right now I can't think of a location where I could have it dropped. Plus I think it would open me up to tons of liability if the other location were to have an accident with it.

Click to expand...

There will be no liability issue, all you have to do is ask someone. Low risk in asking right? If your not really ready for chemicals yet I understand based on your first post.

Click to expand...

There is a huge liability issue. If they drop a package containing hazardous chemicals and someone is injured, the liability is first on them, and the first thing their insurance lawyers are going to do is sue you.

Click to expand...

No. Not if you lay it all out there up front and agree everything. Look if you're going to be worried about people suing you at every turn then stamp collecting might be a better use of your time.

Use common sense, it usually works. Excuse my candour but the whole "OMG we're terrified of lawyers" thing really bugs me. They all need dumping at the bottom of some deep trench.

snoman701 said:

Smack said:

snoman701 said:

I considered that option, but right now I can't think of a location where I could have it dropped. Plus I think it would open me up to tons of liability if the other location were to have an accident with it.

Click to expand...

There will be no liability issue, all you have to do is ask someone. Low risk in asking right? If your not really ready for chemicals yet I understand based on your first post.

Click to expand...

There is a huge liability issue. If they drop a package containing hazardous chemicals and someone is injured, the liability is first on them, and the first thing their insurance lawyers are going to do is sue you.

Click to expand...

Yep, your right snowman. Good Luck to ya.

I'm not being a jerk about it...I could very well get it shipped to a friend. But there is something that is just unnerving about most of the dock workers I know moving around a keg of nitric, especially without them having any training in safe chemical handling. I guess a lot of it depends on the type of business it's getting dropped off at...but most of them that I am friends with aren't exactly providing the gentle touch.

When I worked in the lab, we had pretty specific processes for how intake happened. If something was leaking, it was segregated and dealt with accordingly. There's just a lot of bad things that can happen there.

So you are very correct...no harm in asking...it just raises my hackles. I've seen too many industrial accidents.