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reign21male

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
60
Hi, I know I said wasnt going to try this but in the end I had too. I had made a button of different carts 8k to 18k. And I decided to inquart it 22 grams of mix gold with about 22 grans of silver and I read in hokies you can use gold filed to it to the lower the cart the lest time in the acided.[attachment]IMAG1080.jpg[/attachment] it looked really odd. But for being my first try. I'm not sure how it should look. There was a total of 10 tzo in the bowl I add water to 300 ml line and the add nitric acid until a reaction. The line was up to 450 ml so ot was pretty deluted. And it was 40 degrees outside so I put in a plastic bucket and add boil water ever so often.IMAG1082.jpg. Once it stopped reacting I add more nitric acid and there was no reaction so I started deluting it and decanted the fluid. The result[attachment]IMAG1086.jpg[/attachment] And alot of blue wash which the next day I tried to add copper to precipitate the silver with no results. I ran a magnet over the slimey feed and there is ore or steel some of it stuck. I read AR would disolve that to. So I tried that and got a Uber dark green colorIMAG1089.jpg sorry if acttachments are out of order. I can seem to figure out this site. Dark Cup is AR. I used a alot on it twice and it react of hour the two time I add the Aqua Regia. I decided to take so of the pieces out and puty in the other cup with just water and alot of nitric acid it react for a long time when it stopped i adv it more it react for a bit and stopped now it had a really cloudy blue which i keeped I put some on in another bottle and add copper and it look like it was reacting. I know more on that tomorrow. This is what I ended up with a Dark green gray solution and some mud or slugde and some pieces that do seem to want to dissovle and dont want to run out of acid. I have a little less then a half a pint nitric acid left.IMAG1080.jpg
IMAG1090.jpg
 

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i dont think gold filled is the best material to inquart with. it usually contains tin in the mix. also, i dont think you got a good melt when you mixed the metals. it needs to be melted together completely and stirred with a carbon rod to ensure a good mix. you didnt pour the melted metal into shot. shot gives the acid more area of contact. you didnt use near enough nitric acid to finish the dissolution. i believe the base metal in your incomplete mix may have cemented the silver out of solution anyway. the grey could be lead from the gold filled or maybe not.thats why its a poor choice for inquarting (to many variants).

id say, decant the solution and cement whatever may remain in solution out with copper. add the powder back to your material and incinerate the lot.boil in hcl to remove as much tin as you can and decant while hot.rinse in boiling water and decant.repeat rinse.dry and melt and add enough silver to ensure 6K margin.too much silver will not hurt other than it takes more acid, not enough silver and the acid dissolves nothing.this time, pour into shot and try again with the correct amount of acid for the weight you are working with.
 
What I got out of this, and excuse me if I am wrong, you dissolved your metal with nitric, then added A/R to the solution? Is that correct?
 
yea, i got that too, but it was only one container. i didnt even mention that. some times we have to learn by doing.
 
First I want to say thanks for your help. But to be a little clearer. I had alot of gold filled, and i'm sure some electric plate got into. The first shot I made was just gold and silver. Then all the additional shots were gold filled. Each shot was fluxed and melted and stirred. And drizzled out in the iron pan with cold water. However most of the shot landed on top of each other and melted together. So from what I'm getting from you is that I didnt use enough nitric acid and the gold filled take alot of acid even when melted down. And no I didnt add AR to the spent nitric acid. I poured out the deluted solution and the next day Add AR until it stop reacting and then I add more. Then I decided after the fact that maybe I should have done a longer nitric acid bath. So I moved the chunks over. And got the better looking blue solution instead of the little bluish green color I had before. Should I toss the first set of waste as it didnt react to the copper or should I heat it up and concentrated and see if reacts. Or should Pour salt and see if I crystals? I hope this gives you a better idea of teh process I used. Thanks in advance -Jason-
 
After waking up I realized you probably meant cement the gold. Jokes say its a long process any idea how long to let the copper sit?
 
i understand well. you started a process you know nothing about. im not trying to be a smart--- about it but stating what i see. you should study a process before you try it. what you have done is make a mess.

let me quickly explain inquarting. inquarting is bringing the Karat of of gold to 6K or 25% pure gold. gold is normally inquarted with a metal that is easily dissolved in nitric acid like copper or silver. since it takes roughly 1 gallon of nitric acid to dissolve 2 pounds of copper while 1 gallon of nitric acid will dissolve 8 pounds of silver, silver is more economical to use.in this 6K state, the content of gold is such that the nitric acid can work within the metals matrix dissolving the inquarted metal from around the gold metal. the end result should be a gold "sponge" if you did the process correctly. never is AR used in inquarting as it will dissolve gold and that is not the objective.you want the gold to stay intact and the inquarting metal dissolved. nitric acid is normally used diluted 50/50 68% nitric acid and water.

gold filled is normally gold over copper but can be gold over silver but contains other base metals like tin and lead and steel. gold plated can be almost any base metal including zinc and heavy metals that can be toxic like chromium. do not use these materials to inquart.

cementing can take as long as a couple of days depending on whats in the solution. i would give it 24 hours anyway at the least.
 
My intention was to lower the karat so that it would dissolve faster. Didn't realized adding the gold fill was going to make it harder. My understanding was that when it dissolved it all the impurities would go with it. Then I could dissolve the gold with AR to remove and stubborn metals and ores that were left and clean the powder with nitric acid and then melt. I read hokes. I look at it almost every day at work. I saw this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ4sOiT_WWA its in four parts in inquarts 14k with silver shots. Use nitiric acid and the AR adds sulfuric acid to get rid of the lead. Which hokes says isn't necessary but some places do it. Washs and recanted many times the filtered gold using nitric acid and then melts. The only this is see wrong as a first times was take in the amount of unknow melts which if I had more time I would have done seperate. I will cement what I can. And check periodicily for gold whith stannson solution. And I figured it was a bit of a mess. Should I not try to dissolve the rest of the melt in nitric acid?
 
wow another person that also seemed to over look part of the book they or Maybe the two of you should look at these parts of the books.
66 REFINING PRECIOUS METAL WASTES
suitable when green gold is soldered to, or mixed with, platinum,
as in the case of platinum topped jewelry with a green-gold base.
You are already familiar with the idea of inquartation, or adding
enough silver, copper, or brass, to reduce the gold content to 25%
or less. This is the usual plan when green gold is refined.
The other alternative, of melting it up with some metal that will
make it soluble in aqua regia, is not so popular, but the student
should understand it. A button that contains more than 12% silver
is very slow to dissolve in aqua regia. With silver as low as 8%,
aqua regia works readily enough, especially if hot. (We are as
suming that the other constituents are metals that are themselves
soluble in aqua regia, such as gold, copper, zinc, or nickel.) We
can easily imagine a situation wherein a jeweler might have on
hand a little green gold, and considerable yellow gold, red gold, or
fine gold. By melting all these together he would obtain a button
of less than 12% silver, that would dissolve in aqua regia, and that
could be refined by familiar methods. This part used inquarting and AR.

A third plan, suitable to the average shop, is to use cheap scrap
as the added material in the inquartation of high grade scrap, as
described in Chapter VI. This gives the worker a button similar
to that described in Chapter VI except that it probably contains
tin and lead.In a shop that handles gold and silver only no platinum-group
metals this is an excellent scheme so long as the worker understands
the effects of the tin and lead, and knows how to get rid of them.
We urge the student to become familiar with this plan, as he will
have many opportunities to use it.In which geo said it my be lead. So for the only real help out this thread.

For your first refining of cheap scrap rolled gold, filled gold,
electroplated goods, or goods that have been repaired with soft
solder we suggest that you employ this modified acid method,
which will now be described fully, in order to learn to recognize
the effects of tin and lead, and to get rid of them. Having learned
these important things, you can then use the method of inquarta
tion when desired, as it employs the same general principles.

In a shop that handles gold and silver only no platinum-group
metals this is an excellent scheme so long as the worker understands
the effects of the tin and lead, and knows how to get rid of them.
We urge the student to become familiar with this plan, as he will
have many opportunities to use it.

For your first refining of cheap scrap rolled gold, filled gold,
electroplated goods, or goods that have been repaired with soft
solder we suggest that you employ this modified acid method,
which will now be described fully, in order to learn to recognize
the effects of tin and lead, and to get rid of them. Having learned
these important things, you can then use the method of inquarta
tion when desired, as it employs the same general principles.

I'm not leaving this updated for the Two that have decided to give there rather poor responses.
But rather for the people that are trying to learn and have realized that most people here are not really here to help.
But are more likely waiting for someone to come up with another method or explain another reaction.
But tell you to try these experiments. Unlike the response you will get here of go read the book. or understand the book first. I think Hokes would have laughed and that response. Either way It may be tin and lead in which I will try sulphuric acid or 50/50 hydrogen peroxide and hydrochloric acid.
I have nothing to loss by trying different methods. And there better forum were people seem to under the other methods. I see why new people seem to take issue with geo. And remember never say never.
I hope this helps some new people.
 
reign21male said:
I see why new people seem to take issue with geo.
Click to expand...

When you have successfully refined as little as 1% of the precious metals that Geo has refined you will discover that your 'issue' with him is unfounded.
If you think you have found a forum with better quality information provided to you free of charge then I wish you luck in your future processing.
Do you not believe us when we, as a group, point you in the direction of the information you need (Hoke's book)? We don't do practical jokes here, we try to help people with an interest in refining, but if you aren't prepared to help yourself by reading the information we guide you to, then with the best will in the world we are flogging a dead horse.
 
reign21male said:
wow another person that also seemed to over look part of the book they or Maybe the two of you should look at these parts of the books.
66 REFINING PRECIOUS METAL WASTES
suitable when green gold is soldered to, or mixed with, platinum,
as in the case of platinum topped jewelry with a green-gold base.
You are already familiar with the idea of inquartation, or adding
enough silver, copper, or brass, to reduce the gold content to 25%
or less. This is the usual plan when green gold is refined.
The other alternative, of melting it up with some metal that will
make it soluble in aqua regia, is not so popular, but the student
should understand it. A button that contains more than 12% silver
is very slow to dissolve in aqua regia. With silver as low as 8%,
aqua regia works readily enough, especially if hot. (We are as
suming that the other constituents are metals that are themselves
soluble in aqua regia, such as gold, copper, zinc, or nickel.) We
can easily imagine a situation wherein a jeweler might have on
hand a little green gold, and considerable yellow gold, red gold, or
fine gold. By melting all these together he would obtain a button
of less than 12% silver, that would dissolve in aqua regia, and that
could be refined by familiar methods. This part used inquarting and AR.

A third plan, suitable to the average shop, is to use cheap scrap
as the added material in the inquartation of high grade scrap, as
described in Chapter VI. This gives the worker a button similar
to that described in Chapter VI except that it probably contains
tin and lead.In a shop that handles gold and silver only no platinum-group
metals this is an excellent scheme so long as the worker understands
the effects of the tin and lead, and knows how to get rid of them.
We urge the student to become familiar with this plan, as he will
have many opportunities to use it.In which geo said it my be lead. So for the only real help out this thread.

For your first refining of cheap scrap rolled gold, filled gold,
electroplated goods, or goods that have been repaired with soft
solder we suggest that you employ this modified acid method,
which will now be described fully, in order to learn to recognize
the effects of tin and lead, and to get rid of them. Having learned
these important things, you can then use the method of inquarta
tion when desired, as it employs the same general principles.

In a shop that handles gold and silver only no platinum-group
metals this is an excellent scheme so long as the worker understands
the effects of the tin and lead, and knows how to get rid of them.
We urge the student to become familiar with this plan, as he will
have many opportunities to use it.

For your first refining of cheap scrap rolled gold, filled gold,
electroplated goods, or goods that have been repaired with soft
solder we suggest that you employ this modified acid method,
which will now be described fully, in order to learn to recognize
the effects of tin and lead, and to get rid of them. Having learned
these important things, you can then use the method of inquarta
tion when desired, as it employs the same general principles.

I'm not leaving this updated for the Two that have decided to give there rather poor responses.
But rather for the people that are trying to learn and have realized that most people here are not really here to help.
But are more likely waiting for someone to come up with another method or explain another reaction.
But tell you to try these experiments. Unlike the response you will get here of go read the book. or understand the book first. I think Hokes would have laughed and that response. Either way It may be tin and lead in which I will try sulphuric acid or 50/50 hydrogen peroxide and hydrochloric acid.
I have nothing to loss by trying different methods. And there better forum were people seem to under the other methods. I see why new people seem to take issue with geo. And remember never say never.
I hope this helps some new people.
Click to expand...

Another one who needs to be shown the exit door! Don't let the door hit you .. ... ...

Jim
 
I'll start by saying that I'm not defending anyone here, they can take care of theirselves quite well. I only intend to point out what appears to be a basic misconception on your part.

reign21male said:
Didn't realize adding the gold fill was going to make it harder. My understanding was that when it dissolved it all the impurities would go with it.
Click to expand...

Hoke did tell you, on the page you pasted here, that tin and lead were going to be complications of using gold-filled. She even makes it a point to say that you need to be able to identify the effects of tin and lead and learn how to get rid of them.

SHE WHO WE SHALL CALL HOKE said:
For your first refining of cheap scrap rolled gold, filled gold, electroplated goods, or goods that have been repaired with soft solder we suggest that you employ this modified acid method, which will now be described fully, in order to learn to recognize the effects of tin and lead, and to get rid of them. Having learned these important things, you can then use the method of inquartation when desired, as it employs the same general principles.
Click to expand...

And nowhere in Hoke will you find any encouragement to use AR to
reign21male said:
remove and(any) stubborn metals and ores that were left and clean the powder with nitric acid and then melt.
Click to expand...

That is why, I believe, there is a general thought that you don't understand Hoke. Obviously, you have read the book, at least some pertinent parts. But to say that


reign21male said:
AR adds sulfuric acid to get rid of the lead.
Click to expand...

is not only wrong, but also displays a basic ignorance of the components of AR along with it's purpose in the refining stages.

I take Hoke to mean that we should all be knowledgable about tin and lead and their effect in our recovery and refining, but we should attempt to avoid getting them in there in the first place. Kinda like touching a hot burner, hopefully you only do it once. Best to avoid doing it over and over.


I'd encourage you to reevaluate your comments and think about the bigger picture of your recovery and refining education. You won't be better off by being insulted and leaving. And that isn't anyone's end here. If it were, no one would have responded to you in the first place. Check Geo's first reponse and I think you'll agree that he was trouble-shooting for you.

And just as an aside, maybe use a deeper pan with more water to pour your shot;)
 
reign21male,
What happen?
You made a mess.
You do not understand the process.
You do not understand Hokes.
You do not know good advice when you hear it.
You are New to this and have a lot to learn.
Your attitude towards those trying to help is unacceptable on this forum.

May I add the advice you were given and the information provided, by these guys and Geo, they done an excellent job at the advice they were giving you, it was well thought out and very accurate actually I was very impressed at the understanding and well delivered messages, and cannot understand your attitude except to think either your pride is clouding your thought or else you truly do not have an understanding of what you are doing, in refining or with your attitude to these guys trying to help you out of a stupid mistake.

You took High grade gold and mixed it with trash, making it harder to get back your gold, in this mess with tin and nitric acid you will have colloidal gold which can result in high loses of values, after being given good advice to help you with this mess, you spit in the guys face and quote a few pages from Hoke's book to defend your position, trouble is you did not even understand the pages you quoted or you would see how wrong you are.

If you want help I expect first an apology to those who are trying to help.

I will not ban you at this point because I feel you do want to learn, and you let your pride cause you to put your big foot in your mouth, and you just do not understand, and I also know these guys can help you, if you need or want the help of the forum, or need help in understanding Hokes book, but to get this help you will need to give a sincere apology.


What happen? can be determined by what will happen next.

Think about it you have an opportunity here to learn, and learn from those who do understand, and are willing to help, and you can have these guys to help you understand learn to recover and refining, and know how not to waste your gold doing stupid things that you do not understand, or you can choose to study Hokes on your own, without the help of this forum hoping you understand it, and are not losing gold, or thinking you know everything and not worry about how much gold you throw away, the choice is yours, it is my hope you choose wisely, and which ever way you choose I wish you luck, but I will not let you talk to our members like you did above, that behavior is unacceptable on this forum

Butcher
 
Geo,
I was impressed by your post above, when reading this thread I thought to myself of how far you have come in your understanding, and how well you explained it, I know you have worked very hard to gain that understanding, I also must say how much of a help you have been to others on the forum.
You have been doing a great job.

Thank you

(I am also sorry that reign21male did not have enough understanding to see it).
 
This whole conversion has been a misunderstanding from the start. I believe there have been too many assumpation and not enough questions or anwsers.
First I want to thank you Andy for replying with the details and being the first people that seems to under what I was trying to convey. And that he recognized that the pan I was using wasn't large enough for the shots I was making. Which is just another example on to correct someone. Not tell them you didnt shot you did it wrong. However for reason or another you misquoted me. Earlier I was trying to explain a four part video I saw doing the same process with the exception of the gold filled and many some electric plated. Except what I said was that the guy in the video inquarts and uses nitric acid and then he uses AR and then add sulfuric acid to get rid of the lead. I also said that hokes said this was unnecessary.
I work for a lab. I help 60 to 100 people a day. I have train many people over the years to many diffent jobs. This is what I take issue with first of all
I had a question and obvious this if my first a time or I wouldn't have been here in the first place if I was 100% on the process.
There basicly acouple of ways people learn. some by reading. some by hearing and last by doing. For me with this I need to see it as hokes also advised. There is a 1% chance that someone here has a eidetic memory. Or in layman's terms photographic memory.
Andy was the only one that seem to understand I was proving my method much like scientist or lawyers. I laid out my process and should proof of it working. To get someone I dont know to tell I'm wrong with out really explaining why it was wrong. And to get irrated with me when I defend my process with the same book he and other have same read the book. Then to be ganged up the same people that started out the same way I am. That isnt right. I read what geo said. I also add more info to give him a better understanding and also asked other questions that were not anwsered. In short you many have a process that you use time in again and there are several different ways to refine gold. But you can't tell me I'm wrong and not tell me why and expect me to understand after all I have presented to you.
Regards
 
reign21male said:
This whole conversion has been a misunderstanding from the start. I believe there have been too many assumpation and not enough questions or anwsers.
First I want to thank you Andy for replying with the details and being the first people that seems to under what I was trying to convey. And that he recognized that the pan I was using wasn't large enough for the shots I was making. Which is just another example on to correct someone. Not tell them you didnt shot you did it wrong. However for reason or another you misquoted me. Earlier I was trying to explain a four part video I saw doing the same process with the exception of the gold filled and many some electric plated. Except what I said was that the guy in the video inquarts and uses nitric acid and then he uses AR and then add sulfuric acid to get rid of the lead. I also said that hokes said this was unnecessary.
I work for a lab. I help 60 to 100 people a day. I have train many people over the years to many diffent jobs. This is what I take issue with first of all
I had a question and obvious this if my first a time or I wouldn't have been here in the first place if I was 100% on the process.
There basicly acouple of ways people learn. some by reading. some by hearing and last by doing. For me with this I need to see it as hokes also advised. There is a 1% chance that someone here has a eidetic memory. Or in layman's terms photographic memory.
Andy was the only one that seem to understand I was proving my method much like scientist or lawyers. I laid out my process and should proof of it working. To get someone I dont know to tell I'm wrong with out really explaining why it was wrong. And to get irrated with me when I defend my process with the same book he and other have same read the book. Then to be ganged up the same people that started out the same way I am. That isnt right. I read what geo said. I also add more info to give him a better understanding and also asked other questions that were not anwsered. In short you many have a process that you use time in again and there are several different ways to refine gold. But you can't tell me I'm wrong and not tell me why and expect me to understand after all I have presented to you.
Regards
Click to expand...

I think you still don't get it.

Jim
 

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