Hoke's Book! (Questions)

Hello dear community!

I have some questions about the Hoke book would be glad if you could respond me asap, thanks in advance.
Question is should i follow these steps in the beginning or should i read through the book and then do the steps?

And i might keep using this thread for questions if it is okay!

Personally I'd suggest reading it several time so it makes sense first and then start doing the steps advised when you have more of an idea of the outcome and any reactions that might need care.
Read the safety section here on the forum also it will help to recognise any dangers involved and in refining and recovery there are many.

nickvc said:

Personally I'd suggest reading it several time so it makes sense first and then start doing the steps advised when you have more of an idea of the outcome and any reactions that might need care.
Read the safety section here on the forum also it will help to recognise any dangers involved and in refining and recovery there are many.

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Okay, thank you Nickvc!
You saved my day!

Agreed, read it first, practice a few of the things in it on a small scale.

Another question!
Did read till page 45 now in the pdf file, and I am wondering is it possible to work outdoors.
I can do almost anything outdoors with out any neighbours getting annoyed, and working indoors is not an option since I am still living at my parents house and I dont want to annoy them by using their garage.


I hope I make myself clear!

Working outdoors is just fine, in fact I prefer it.

butcher said:

Working outdoors is just fine, in fact I prefer it.

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That is great!

Until today, outdoors is the only way I had. Cold and rain makes it a poor way, but better than falling out from some chemical mishap.

Just remember that your fumes go somewhere. You may not annoy any neighbors, but the fumes can also kill the plants and animals around you and they add to the overall polution of our environment. They may not amount to much compared to natural sources, and industrial and other manmade polution, but it all adds up.

Working outside is fine and unless you have a dedicated indoor space, it's a much safer option than working in your home or garage. But you should still do as much as you can to control the fumes that are produced.

Dave

FrugalRefiner said:

Just remember that your fumes go somewhere. You may not annoy any neighbors, but the fumes can also kill the plants and animals around you and they add to the overall polution of our environment. They may not amount to much compared to natural sources, and industrial and other manmade polution, but it all adds up.

Working outside is fine and unless you have a dedicated indoor space, it's a much safer option than working in your home or garage. But you should still do as much as you can to control the fumes that are produced.

Dave

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Well we are doing pretty much for the enviroment at my home, so ya I would prefer to come up with a solution.

Hoke p.41:

As you learned in your acquaintance tests, nitric acid works rapidly
on low-karat gold such as 6-k or under, which soon crumbles
to pieces. The copper and silver with which it is alloyed go into
solution, and the particles of gold are left as a brown powder.
Gold that assays 12-k or higher does not crumble. The acid dissolves
most of the solder, and a piece of jewelry will drop apart for
that reason, but the 12-k gold will not be acted upon much. Later
we treat this gold with aqua regia, in which it dissolves promptly
and easily. As for gold between 6-k and 12-k: the effect of this
treatment will depend upon the strength of the acid, the character
of the alloy, and the thickness of the pieces.

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I have about 40 g 8K scrap jewelry. Am I right to understand, that it will not be a mistake just to try, if my 8K scrap will react satisfying with nitric, just a bit slower? And do I understand it correctly, that it nevertheless is possible, that some or all pieces will resist and have to be inquarted anyway? The typical composition of European 333 stamped yellow gold seem to be Au33Ag33Cu33 (wiki).

If you can roll or hammer the items very thin, you'll probably be OK.

Inquartation is 1/4 gold. It's easy to remember and pretty easy to calculate how much metal to add, but other sources I've read have said that ratios of 2 to 2-1/2 parts base metal to 1 part gold will work.

Like most of the procedures recommended here, inquartation to 25% will work reliably every time. It's not the only proportion that will work. If you were a newb, I'd say inquart. Get it thin. You may not get all the base metals, but you'll definitely get the majority. When you digest in AR, if you have any solids remaining, you can wash them in ammonia (remember to reacidify promptly) and rerun them in another batch.

Did I mention you need to roll or pound very thin.

Dave

Thank you, Dave. Now I see, I obviously tried to understand the text passage from Hoke in the way, I would have liked the most. :lol: Yes, yes, no shortcuts....again and as always.

I guess I leave this 8K stuff for later, just like the gold teeth.

Solar I'd be suprised to find the silver content that high, many alloys leave the silver out completely on lower karat items. That said the balance will be copper or zinc so hot nitric might well do the job if the items aren't too thick.

Solar,

I have run a lot of 10K class rings. I have no remembrance of what the actual karat of these ended up being (probably 8K or 9K) but, in most cases, I was able to totally leach out the silver and base metals with hot 50/50 nitric. It took most of the day to do this. The brown result was often still in the shape of the ring and you could still read the writing on it. Using a glass stir rod, you could crumble it. If, with the stir rod, you could still feel a hard core in the center, more time in the nitric was needed.

I'm thinking I started with pre-mixed 50/50 (cut with distilled water) and then occasionally made small additions of straight nitric as it progressed. It took a lot of heat. If you have it covered, you might even boil it somewhat, although you might lose a little silver. When the reaction slowed down, I likely would have, at some point, poured it off and re-started with fresh. It speeds thinks up, somewhat, to mash the material up occasionally with a still rod.

I doubt if those rings were less than 8K. This process usually worked. If fact, with 10K class rings, I can't remember it not working. One thing to consider is that, when we inquart, it's difficult to get a thorough alloy blend so that it all is 6K. There will usually be some hot spots greater than 6K. However, with enough time, these hot spots will usually leach.

That's good news! Thank you GSP!

I assumed, that alloying is an art on its own and didn't like to rush into the next art, before I am satisfied with all the subjects I am in progress with. So, only the chance to make it work just with enough time and heat is a great news.

nickvc said:

Solar I'd be suprised to find the silver content that high, many alloys leave the silver out completely on lower karat items. That said the balance will be copper or zinc so hot nitric might well do the job if the items aren't too thick.

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I don't know the content for sure. I just read the german wiki about yellow 333 gold alloy. Thank you for the input!

solar_plasma said:

That's good news! Thank you GSP!

I assumed, that alloying is an art on its own and didn't like to rush into the next art, before I am satisfied with all the subjects I am in progress with. So, only the chance to make it work just with enough time and heat is a great news.

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I would just jump in and try the nitric. Even if doesn't work, there's no damage and you're no worse off than you were before you started. If it does work, it's a helluva lot easier than inquarting or direct dissolving in AR. When I had 10K, I always tried nitric first. If it worked, it worked. If it didn't, I went to something else - usually direct AR. Except for gold with high silver, inquarting everything always seemed foolish, at least for me, for several reasons.

goldsilverpro said:

I have run a lot of 10K class rings. I have no remembrance of what the actual karat of these ended up being (probably 8K or 9K)

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Chris,
I had occasion to run a few pounds of class rings as a solitary batch, which I tracked as best I could. What I determined was that they were borderline legal (meaning they were 9 karat, but just barely). Speaking for marking regs of old (which would have applied to those I processed), there was a tolerance of ± ½ karat for alloy, and an additional tolerance of ± ½ karat for soldered objects (virtually all class rings were soldered then, although I can not address modern manufacturing methods).

The manufacturers of class rings made them on massive scales. For them to substitute base metals for gold made all kinds of sense, so they did so, staying marginally within the law.

Look at it this way. Class ring makers may well have used a ton of gold annually. If they could substitute base metals for gold by lowering the karat to the bottom acceptable level, in effect, they stretched their gold about 10%.

No, I can't prove my case---but if you follow the dollars, it sure as hell makes sense. 8)

Harold

I would bet the manufacturers still do exactly the same now if they can get away with it, as I have pointed out before its nearly impossible here in the UK as items have to to the karat marked or above, below and the Assay Offices will destroy the items or mark as the next lower karat.