Fake gold bullion?

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turtlesteve

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
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Forum members,

I have read several threads discussing fake or filled bullion bars (silver and gold), and obviously there have been some confirmed instances of this. However, my question is, can anyone point to confirmed instances of "high quality" counterfeits of lower denominations (i.e. bullion coins or ~1 oz bars)? By high quality, I mean coins that were of the correct dimensions and weight, but were actually gold clad or gold plate over tungsten (or similar).

I'm trying to gauge how much of a threat such fakes pose. My guess is, even if they are not a problem now, they will be in the future as the price of gold continues to rise, and technology becomes more accessible.

Thanks,
Steve
 
You are correct in assuming it will come to that but without drilling or deeply filing the coin or bar it is almost impossible to tell.

I know buyers today who tell their customers what the piece is worth if it is real, and if it is real after testing they will buy it. Then they tell them they will drill a few holes through the piece and if it is real they buy it. If it is fake, well they trashed a fake. Most sellers accept the deal.

Next time I see him, I'll ask him how many fakes he's come across.
 
I have a Dos Pesos coin that is the correct size and weight.

It was from an estate, which was known to have had jewelry, like charm bracelets and earrings, with coins like these in bezels, dangling. But this one was unmounted.

A testing pen got varying readings, and a small drop of 22K acid revealed a grey-copper colored metal under the gold plating.

The jewelry which this coin is presumed to have come from was around 60 years old, so I'm thinking the fakes were produced only for the jewelry, as they might come under less scruteny in that form, and possibly were sold to tourists back then. In other words, not recent work.
 
A buyer I know that buys pure gold won't accept bars. He wants everything shotted so he can see exactly what he is getting. With all the crap out there, this makes a lot of sense to me.
 
A bar or coin made from plated tungsten might have the look of gold, and a specific gravity close enough to defy detection that way. A coin made from tungsten will even have a nice "ring" when dropped - though in a somewhat higher pitch than gold. A tungsten bar or round would easily be distinguishable from gold though. Gold is diamagnetic - it actually produces a slight repulsive effect when induced with a strong magnetic field. Tungsten is paramagnetic - put simply, it is weakly attracted to a magnet. The mass susceptibility (measure of magnetic influence) of gold is -28. Tungsten has a MS of +59. A powerful rare-earth magnet will stick very obviously to a piece of tungsten. I would not buy a "gold" object that displayed that same property.
 
Militoy,

I am aware of this difference, but I'm also quite sure that (pure) tungsten will not visibly stick to a rare earth magnet.

I'm just trying to find out if these fakes are really out there in lower denominations.

Steve
 
and the plot thickens......

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fake-gold-wafer-rbc-canadian-mint-1.4368801
 
Palladium said:
and the plot thickens......

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fake-gold-wafer-rbc-canadian-mint-1.4368801
Click to expand...

Yeah, there was a youtube video I watched where a guy had bought dozens of sealed bars and coins that were "gold", only to find out almost all were fake... They looked legit, so it never came to question. I will try to find that link. It was heartbreaking
 
etack said:
had me worried had to go look and make sure all mine were not RCM.

Eric
Click to expand...

I havent had luck finding it yet, and wont have time for a minute because of trick or treating, but I do remember that it was a myriad of companies. Sunshine, JM, RCM, and a couple other big names. On the Sunshine mint ones, the hologram was even spoofed..
 
Militoy said:
A bar or coin made from plated tungsten might have the look of gold, and a specific gravity close enough to defy detection that way. A coin made from tungsten will even have a nice "ring" when dropped - though in a somewhat higher pitch than gold. A tungsten bar or round would easily be distinguishable from gold though. Gold is diamagnetic - it actually produces a slight repulsive effect when induced with a strong magnetic field. Tungsten is paramagnetic - put simply, it is weakly attracted to a magnet. The mass susceptibility (measure of magnetic influence) of gold is -28. Tungsten has a MS of +59. A powerful rare-earth magnet will stick very obviously to a piece of tungsten. I would not buy a "gold" object that displayed that same property.
Click to expand...

Passing the alloy through a magentic field will produce a known effect.

If you youtube "magnetic penny sorter" you can see the use of eddy currents to differentiate between copper/bronze and copper/zinc. Same thing will happen in gold vs plated/filled. You just have to know what pure looks like when passing through the magnetic field.

Tungsten is very very weekly attracted to magnets...very weakly. Generally, with a strong enough magnet, you can make it move, but you can't pick it up. Or you can pick it up every so slightly, but it won't hold for any acceleration.
 
Attention, gold diamagnetism refers to .99999 gold which is very rare
 

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The key to the success of the counterfeit program is the packaging. Usually ounce coins are in a hermetically sealed package with measures taken to foil counterfeiting. PAMP was stung by the same thing a few years back but if I remember correctly it was on bars 10 ounces and up.

With the right packaging, a shiny brass alloy that looks right and has close to the right density can be passed off as the real deal. The packaging is something an investor doesn't want to open because that is why they feel it is genuine. The fact that a jeweler paid the premium for the bar only to alloy it is unusual. But it is the unusual and unpredictable uses that often foil even the most thought out criminal plots.

Whomever slipped this bar into the bank likely purchased it legit and repackaged it using the packaging control numbers from the real gold bar. The packaging equipment is not cheap so the statement that this is a one time occurrence is stretching it. Maybe this was a trial test but if the equipment was acquired to do the deed there will be many more to come. And if someone was caught you can bet the farm it will be all over the news. This type of fraud can really hurt a mint's reputation. And the RCM's reputation is stellar!
 
Last year I saw a TV program about the vault of the largest ETF gold, GLD. Apparently it is the largest single holder of bars in the world. They showed a bar, and someone noticed that the numbers did not correspond with any bar issued by the respective refiner that stamped the bar... hehe. It was all over the news. GLD price did not drop at all.
 
4metals said:
The key to the success of the counterfeit program is the packaging. Usually ounce coins are in a hermetically sealed package with measures taken to foil counterfeiting. PAMP was stung by the same thing a few years back but if I remember correctly it was on bars 10 ounces and up.

With the right packaging, a shiny brass alloy that looks right and has close to the right density can be passed off as the real deal. The packaging is something an investor doesn't want to open because that is why they feel it is genuine. The fact that a jeweler paid the premium for the bar only to alloy it is unusual. But it is the unusual and unpredictable uses that often foil even the most thought out criminal plots.

Whomever slipped this bar into the bank likely purchased it legit and repackaged it using the packaging control numbers from the real gold bar. The packaging equipment is not cheap so the statement that this is a one time occurrence is stretching it. Maybe this was a trial test but if the equipment was acquired to do the deed there will be many more to come. And if someone was caught you can bet the farm it will be all over the news. This type of fraud can really hurt a mint's reputation. And the RCM's reputation is stellar!
Click to expand...


One thing I like in theory about PAMP is their Veriscan system. They make scans of the surface imperfections on newly minted bars and keep them on file. It's possible to then scan your own bar still sealed in it's assay card, and their application can verify it against the original data saved at PAMP. I say in theory since I've never actually tried it to verify my PAMP one ounce bars. I bought them several years ago so not all of mine have the Veriscan capability. I got them from reputable EBay dealers though before we ever heard any reports of fake bars, and they're all the same thickness (fake one ounce PAMP bars are noticeably thicker). As you might assume, to eliminate variables it's only set up to work with one model Canon scanner. You can buy the scanner from wherever you like though and they say it costs under $200. A positioning frame is required that you do have to get from PAMP, which apparently costs $50. For a gold buyer though, I think it would be cheap insurance if they deal a lot in PAMP products.
 
Don't think for a minute they invested in Veriscan technology because they wanted to. They had no choice as so many bad bars with their markings were being passed. Most were machined out and had tungsten cores if I remember right. But reliability of anything marked PAMP was down the tubes so they had to do something. Veriscan was their answer and it apparently kept them in the business of bullion bars.

If this issue with RCM starts to hurt sales on their investment bullion, they may be using this type of technology as well.

http://pamp.com/veriscan
 
Anything you want to know about fakes shout. I run a Facebook page dedicated to helping members with gold and silver fakes. Far too much going around.
 

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