Interesting read from MarketWatch -
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/is-gold-on-the-verge-of-breaking-out-2018-01-20-151031412
James
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/is-gold-on-the-verge-of-breaking-out-2018-01-20-151031412
James
anachronism said:There's an awful lot of market influencing and manipulation going on right now James. The establishment is terrified as the amount of money "normal" people are making on crypto currency because it takes the old system of financial control away from the banks and allows the common man to make money independently of the established banking system.
When they are resorting to using gold as a lever against this, bearing in mind how the gold price has been artificially restricted it shows the depths of their concern.
g_axelsson said:I don't see the correlation between BTC and gold? So now when BTC have soared to extreme highs the gold have ... risen too.
Even with the extreme growth of BTC, the current valuation of all gold is 40 times higher that the current valuation of all BTC.
In my view bitcoins is a bubble with no other security than the belief in it by it's users. For most paper money at least it is coupled to a working economy by loans, securities and so on. And gold is coupled to the physical metal.
I'm just waiting for the bitcoin market to implode.
As now I think the most insightful people in the gold market is the two experts GSP cited, I think they are spot on.
So how does refineries secure against a fluctuating price? Either buy / sell gold in paper form to balance the internal stocks, or pay out based on the spot price when they sell the gold.
Göran
g_axelsson said:I don't see the correlation between BTC and gold? So now when BTC have soared to extreme highs the gold have ... risen too.
That is where you are wrong. The cash is already gone. If BTC would become worthless, ie no one is buying and anyone that want to sell have to do in at lower prices... for every BTC that is sold at a lower level someone has to free cash to buy BTC while the one that sells BTC and receives dollars put the dollars into something. Except for slight variations in where the dollar comes from and goes to it more or less levels out.niks neims said:g_axelsson said:I don't see the correlation between BTC and gold? So now when BTC have soared to extreme highs the gold have ... risen too.
BTC currently represent about 200 trillion euros of attributed value to them, when the market will eventually crash, some of that value will have to go in to other placeholders, be it stocks, currencies or any other investment tools like gold. That is actually what "the crash" IS - price of any other currencies dramatically rising compared to BTC, of course everything will rise, dollar, euro, microsoft stocks, silver, gold, realty etc.
g_axelsson said:That is where you are wrong. The cash is already gone. If BTC would become worthless, ie no one is buying and anyone that want to sell have to do in at lower prices... for every BTC that is sold at a lower level someone has to free cash to buy BTC while the one that sells BTC and receives dollars put the dollars into something. Except for slight variations in where the dollar comes from and goes to it more or less levels out.niks neims said:g_axelsson said:I don't see the correlation between BTC and gold? So now when BTC have soared to extreme highs the gold have ... risen too.
BTC currently represent about 200 trillion euros of attributed value to them, when the market will eventually crash, some of that value will have to go in to other placeholders, be it stocks, currencies or any other investment tools like gold. That is actually what "the crash" IS - price of any other currencies dramatically rising compared to BTC, of course everything will rise, dollar, euro, microsoft stocks, silver, gold, realty etc.
If BTC would become worthless over night (ie a crash) the 200 trillion euros of "value" is just gone, it will not be moved into gold or stocks, it's just gone. It has already left the system.
If you start a Neims-coin with a 1000 NMC :wink: and then sell me one for a dollar that means I have to sell four P4 CPU:s to get a dollar which I use to buy a NMC from you. Now we have a 1000 dollar value attributed to NMC while you have a dollar and can buy gold for it... maybe a few mg gold bar.
If the market for NMC then crash, ie you don't want to buy back my NMC and no one else want to buy a NMC for a dollar... well I found a sucker and sold it to him for a cent then the value attributed suddenly went to 10 dollar and the other 990 dollars just vanished. It was never a value, just a valuation.
That is where I see the BTC market today, it's hugely over valuated, have no connection to any substantial values like physical gold, stocks or property. There is nothing to stop a free fall and the number of 200 trillion euros is just a play with numbers.
Göran
cosmetal said:g_axelsson said:That is where you are wrong. The cash is already gone. If BTC would become worthless, ie no one is buying and anyone that want to sell have to do in at lower prices... for every BTC that is sold at a lower level someone has to free cash to buy BTC while the one that sells BTC and receives dollars put the dollars into something. Except for slight variations in where the dollar comes from and goes to it more or less levels out.niks neims said:g_axelsson said:I don't see the correlation between BTC and gold? So now when BTC have soared to extreme highs the gold have ... risen too.
BTC currently represent about 200 trillion euros of attributed value to them, when the market will eventually crash, some of that value will have to go in to other placeholders, be it stocks, currencies or any other investment tools like gold. That is actually what "the crash" IS - price of any other currencies dramatically rising compared to BTC, of course everything will rise, dollar, euro, microsoft stocks, silver, gold, realty etc.
If BTC would become worthless over night (ie a crash) the 200 trillion euros of "value" is just gone, it will not be moved into gold or stocks, it's just gone. It has already left the system.
If you start a Neims-coin with a 1000 NMC :wink: and then sell me one for a dollar that means I have to sell four P4 CPU:s to get a dollar which I use to buy a NMC from you. Now we have a 1000 dollar value attributed to NMC while you have a dollar and can buy gold for it... maybe a few mg gold bar.
If the market for NMC then crash, ie you don't want to buy back my NMC and no one else want to buy a NMC for a dollar... well I found a sucker and sold it to him for a cent then the value attributed suddenly went to 10 dollar and the other 990 dollars just vanished. It was never a value, just a valuation.
That is where I see the BTC market today, it's hugely over valuated, have no connection to any substantial values like physical gold, stocks or property. There is nothing to stop a free fall and the number of 200 trillion euros is just a play with numbers.
Göran
Another MarketWatch article - "Goldman issues a warning on bitcoin -- and an even bigger warning on Ethereum" https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-bitcoin-bubble-now-dwarfs-tulips-and-dot-com-stocks-goldman-warns-2018-01-22
Disses Bitcoin but they are liking the blockchain technology - "Ultimately, it concluded that bitcoin is too volatile to function as a store of value, and too inefficient to replace traditional currencies as a means of transferring value. However, it suggested cryptocurrencies could be a viable alternative in frontier markets, where traditional services of money are inadequately supplied."
Also,
“We think the concept of a digital currency that leverages the blockchain technology is viable given the benefits it could provide: ease of execution globally, lower transaction costs, reduction of correction since all transactions could be traced, safety of ownership, and so on,” Goldman wrote. “But Bitcoin does not provide any of these qualities.”
I like the elegant solution - gold. You can mine it in ewaste, Venezuela or your drinking water. Show me a bitcoin, or another other cyber-currency's, molecule and I might think about mining it then.
James
g_axelsson said:That is where you are wrong. The cash is already gone.
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