Peroxide & HCL color

rainmaker · Apr 25, 2007

I mixed a batch of Peroxide-HCL acid according to instructions given by Lazersteve elsewhere on this forum. I placed 36 PP chips in the jar. After 2 days the acid is a medium green color and there is no indication of the pins and plates detaching from the ceramic. How do I know if my acid is working or strong enough? I do not have a pH meter, can I tell by the color? The batch had been sitting in a unheated area, temps have been mid 50 to low 40 most of the time. I moved the batch into a heated area this evening.

Thanks

Gary

lazersteve · Apr 25, 2007

Try adding some more peroxide. You should get heating, bubbles, and the gold should begin to free up. Another trick I use on very stubborn (thick) plating is to brush the plated surfaces with an old clean toothbrush, because the gold doesn't always pull away as the base metals are dissolved unless the solution is agitated (swirl the dish). I've never had a problem with the legs hollowing out and floating around freely in the solution.

Steve

Fever · Apr 25, 2007

If the chips were not broken open to expose the layers prior to processing in HCL-H202, and all exposed metal components and pins are gold plated, then maybe your solution cannot get underneath the gold to dissolve the base metals? The fact that your solution is turning green seems to indicate that some copper is indeed dissolving. The pins may just be hollowed out already and are retaining their shape due to not being agitated. Just a guess though.....

Fever

lazersteve · Apr 25, 2007

I had excellent results and have never broken up the chips. I save the ceramic shells for crushing later when I get a ball mill operating. I'm saving the loose cores also for a piece of artwork I'm planning on making.

Steve

rainmaker · Apr 25, 2007

Thanks to all of you who responded to my inquary. What about transferring it to the Crockpot.? Will that speed things a bit or is the temp. not a factor?

Gary

lazersteve · Apr 25, 2007

Yes a little heat always helps. Don't leave it unattend for extended periods of time for safety reasons.

rainmaker · Apr 25, 2007

Thanks

I've used the Crockpot for fingers and it works really well, but had never used it for chips.

Rainmaker

catfish · Apr 26, 2007

Steve, what is the fromula that you use for H2O2 and HCL. Also what percentage of contrentration of H2O2 do you use. I have 3% and I found I can get 50% in one gallon size from A & B Prospecting Supplies for about $35.00 + $30.00 Hazmet handling. This seem expensive.

I tried 1H2O2 +2HCL ( H2O2 is 3%) this seems to work but fairly slow.

Thanks,

Catfish

lazersteve · Apr 26, 2007

The ratio I start with is 2 HCl:1 Peroixde.

I use the 3% peroxide. The higher concentration stuff will work faster. I've found that if I keep the color a clear to dark emerald green it tends to react quicker.

Here's how my stock vessel looks right now:

Here's the strainer I made to keep the scrap (fingers usually) separated from the gold foil/flake:

I typically agitate the bath twice a day by pulling the strainer out, waiting a moment or two, then slowly letting it back down into the bath. This causes the gold foils to go into the solution thru the bottom of the strainer and separates them from the finger boards.

Heat helps of course. If I want to hurry it along I'll add a little peroxide every so often to keep the solution warm (it heats and bubbles when you add more peroxide). Once the copper chloride concentration gets right (see the copper chloride document on my website) the solution works really good with an occassional kick start of peroxide. If the solution darkens or percipitates copper chloride ( greenish white crystals ) then add some more muratic to dissolve the percipitates. The solution will slowly dissolve gold if you get it too reactive (excessive peroxide). I'm not in any real hurry, so I typically set up a three gallon bucket (lowes) and let the scrap soak for a few days. I agitate it occasionally to keep the gold foil that has loosened from blocking the remaining copper plate. You can reuse the stuff forever if you keep it filtered and primed with HCl and Peroixde occassionally.

Here's the dirty foil before the rinses:

Notice the copper chloride (grayish white) powder in the mash.

Here's the 'gold mash' produced after washing and rinsing:

And finally here's the foils from the batch:

I hope this helps... any questions

.

Steve

toadiesop · May 27, 2007

Great info here!

Since I just moved and I don't have a garage anymore I can't really play with the "BFRC" methods. So while I'm in my apartment complex I'm limited to my cell and this new method which looks fun, easy, and safe.

I'd love any information that isn't in this thread already.

This looks perfect for what I can do now. This way I can just save all my foil until I can get "back to the woods" so to speak.

Steve, how much did you process in that that batch, and what can you guestimate that yield was?

EDITED to get rid of useless info and questions I had that got answered.

I have everything now I need to do about .75 - 1 gallon at a time. I'm using 9 quart garbage cans as my "buckets". Got a use bin to put everything in.

Now I just need to know about "safe to use indoors with minimal ventilation". It's too cold to leave outside at night right now and expect anything to work.

Can someone just tell me what fumes are expelled with this and what precautions to take? I know "safe indoors" but is that an open basement or can I just put this (one gallon acid, one pound fingers and cpus at a time) and put it in the corner of the living room next to a sliding glass door cracked an inch or so?)

During the day, it can go outside, but like I said, too cold at night now.

I'm aware of the process, but like I said in another thread, I wont do anything until I know everything.

toadiesop · May 27, 2007

gotta reword that...

lazersteve · May 27, 2007

toadie said:
Steve, how much did you process in that that batch, and what can you guestimate that yield was?

If I remember the batch correctly, I processed 3.5 pounds of fingers and the yield was right at 11 grams. I sold the button on ebay last year.

toadie said:
what fumes are expelled with this and what precautions to take? I know "safe indoors" but is that an open basement or can I just put this (one gallon acid, one pound fingers and cpus at a time) and put it in the corner of the living room next to a sliding glass door cracked an inch or so?)

The majority of the fumes are produced mainly when the ingredients are mixed. I typically set a five pound batch of fingers up in my garage and tend it twice a day. The garage stays closed most of the time. After an extended time the garage gets a faint odor in it, so I open the doors and ventilate the area. The agitation stage tends to splatter drops of the mix on nearby objects so I put up scrap sheetrock barriers to block the droplets. I wouldn't set it up in the living room or bedroom due to the slow corrosion of nearby metals the mix causes. This mainly occurs on exposed aluminum and copper objects. This action may damage sensitive machinery or electronic devices.

Steve

toadiesop · May 28, 2007

Thanks Steve! I've got the "droplets" taken care of I think. I brainstormed for a while today got all the stuff I need for under $20 and I'm ready to go.

I was just making sure there wasn't any HARMFUL fumes released. I didn't think there was but I was just making sure before I did anything. I can deal with a little "stink".

I'd still like to know what is released though. In laymans chemical terms of course

(hydrogen, chlorine gas??) I know enough to wiki what gases I'm dealing with if I'm not familiar with them.

But I think I have a good setup for $20..... I figured that it would splash a little so I knew I needed it in a "tote" large enough to hold my buckets and rinse water. Realize that all the things in this picture obviously don't have to be in here at all times... So here's what I got today (minus the pins and cpus of course 8) )

Two 2.25 gallon garbage cans. (I already did the holes and I know I need one more for the rinse but that'll be a few days from now)

Some measuring cups, muriatic, peroxide, some slotted spoons, ect.

Notice the fan next to the door. That will push the stink outside. As I've said, during the day I can just move it outside to the balcony, but being just a mile from the shore of Lake Superior it's still a little chilly at night and I don't know how that will affect it. It'll slow it down anyways.

So here's what it's gonna look like at night. I'm gonna prop the fan up a foot or so the get it as high as the tote.

More to come. I'm still piecing it all together. Thanks again Steve.

EDIT***********

Here's my "test batch". A lot of 486-Pentium era cpus and fingers (around 5 pentium pros in that pile)...... all pulled, cut, and broken by my own hands and I didn't pay a cent for any of it.. 8)

That's what makes it special.

toadiesop · May 28, 2007

How much acid and/or peroxide do you need to put in to "recharge it"

And how do you when to do it? and which one to use?

Daniel · May 28, 2007

I have a bunch of CPU's that I have broken up but I haven't done anything with them thinking I would wait until I could break them down into smaller pieces. Is there a need for this? Maybe I could run them as they are in HCL+peroxide and then gring the tailings up and AR them later to see what comes out. Has anyone done this?

Also, I have a batch of fingers soaking in HCL that has been soaking for a number of days and I have just started to see some gold "floating" in the HCL. I didn't use peroxide as I didn't want to risk disolving gold into the solution. Will the HCL by itself ever fully liberate the gold foils?

I have noticed plenty of vapors during this process with just the HCL alone. I would definately NOT do this in the living space or in an area where air would be circulated to the living areas via heat/cooling systems.

toadiesop · May 28, 2007

Nobody has told me what the vapors are yet though. Anyone?

And we don't have any ducts that the vapors can travel through. It's all going straight outside.

But I'd still really like to know exactly what the vaoprs.

Sorry I can't help you with your question Daniel, but I'm pretty sure you need the Peroxide. It you didn't it wouldn't be part of the recipe.

You can't leave out the flour in a bread recipe.

goldsilverpro · May 28, 2007

HCl is actually hydrogen chloride (HCl) gas dissolved in water. The vapors are pure HCl. They will rust any iron or steel they come in contact with. They will also corrode many other metals, such as aluminum. They are poisonous in a confined area. The apartment in the photos is very nice, but it would look terrible after just a little exposure to HCl fumes. The door frame on the sliding glass door, for example, would soon be corroded. The fumes will also irritate your neighbors and will rust cars. If the weather is such that an inverse temperature gradient exists, the fumes will hang near the ground and corrode and rust everything in sight.

Don't run this or any other acid systems in that apartment or in close proximity to any neighbors. Don't even think about it.

toadiesop · May 28, 2007

Thanks goldsilverpro, but how does Steve use it in his garage with the door closed and not ruin everything in it?

Edit****

And how about in a crockpot with a lid (glass)? I read here that it keeps the vapors in and they "drop back into the stew" I believe were the exact words.

I'm sorry, but I'm still confused how this is "safe to to indoors" when the vapors will corrode everything in sight.

And remember, I'm not talking about 5 pounds at a time. Just one pound.

Steve, can you clarify?

toadiesop · May 28, 2007

On page 1 duh!

I wouldn't set it up in the living room or bedroom due to the slow corrosion of nearby metals the mix causes.

I'm so confused. I give up with this method.

Looks like I'm stuck with my cell until I get back to the woods.

goldsilverpro · May 28, 2007

I don't understand your confusion. To me, it's just common sense. Of course, I've seen a lot of buildings that have been virtually destroyed by HCl fumes.

Although the design of the lid allows for the condensation of the fumes, I would doubt if you get 100% sealing. Also, the lid is removed for filling the pot, removing the solution, and, when checking for complete dissolution.

Peroxide & HCL color

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