So what's driving the price of PGMs

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kurtak
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So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by kurtak » January 13th, 2019, 10:33 am

Ok - I am sure I am not the only one that has noticed the price of Pd & Rh

I mean Pd has now passed that of gold & Rh is now about $1,000 over gold

Is there some kind of "demand" for catalyst (other then catalytic converters) or a "demand" for circuitry components (military, space, medical)

Something has to be driving the price other then just paper investment (like gold & silver)

:shock: :?:

Kurt

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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by Yggdrasil » January 13th, 2019, 12:30 pm

I'm curious about this too.

With respect to Rhodium,
I guess the global volume is so low that a purchase from just a few big companies may "skyrocket" the price.
It has been very stable lately, with almost no movement in a week or so, some times.

Maybe some yet publicly unknown technology is on the verge of getting released,
or even secret technologies we will not hear about for a decade or so ;-)

These metals has very versatile uses, inert, high temp and cathalythic as they are.
Maybe other curious chemical or electrical properties too.
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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by nickvc » January 14th, 2019, 3:05 am

Well Pd was seen as a replacement for higher karat white golds and platinum for jewelry at one stage because it was much cheaper but that didn’t last long, if I remember correctly Russia sold a lot of their stocks of Pd some years ago so perhaps they are now stockpiling again, because PGMs are more industrial use metals rather than jewelry metals perhaps it’s pointing to an upturn in the world economy or as pointed out perhaps new technologies are driving the demand, I’m fairly certain that they are all rarer than gold which makes the platinum price a bit strange so perhaps it’s industrial uses are shrinking.

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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by silversaddle1 » January 14th, 2019, 5:42 am

This could explain why PCB prices have been going up recently. I thought Palladium was widely used in PCB's.

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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by nickvc » January 14th, 2019, 5:53 am

silversaddle1 wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 5:42 am
This could explain why PCB prices have been going up recently. I thought Palladium was widely used in PCB's.
In western tech it’s only used in telecoms I think at the moment,in stuff from the eastern bloc it was widely used as they had plenty of it to use and at the time it was cheap compared to gold.

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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by anachronism » January 14th, 2019, 10:07 am

silversaddle1 wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 5:42 am
This could explain why PCB prices have been going up recently. I thought Palladium was widely used in PCB's.
It's very rarely used in boards, and only certain types.

Board prices will begin to tumble soon - a lot of people will get caught out by the dropping PM values.
If you keep on doing what you've always done then you'll just keep on getting what you've always got.

"If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, or watch the things you gave your life to broken, and stoop and build ‘em up with wornout tools" -- Rudyard Kipling

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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by g_axelsson » January 14th, 2019, 10:22 am

Palladium is used both as a catalyst and as an active colloid to make an active layer on the substrate for electroless copper to adhere. Used in via holes and also for electroless nickel. The amount is so small that ENIG looks like a bloated gold layer in comparison. But on the other side, it is used in a lot of different places, so it is present in small amounts in most pcb:s... as I understand it.

Palladium is not used as a circuit board plating but can be found in trace amounts in tin solder where palladium plated components have been soldered on circuit boards. Especially on older wave soldered boards.

For example on palladium usage : http://jkem.se/technologies/

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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by silversaddle1 » January 14th, 2019, 11:34 am

anachronism wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 10:07 am
silversaddle1 wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 5:42 am
This could explain why PCB prices have been going up recently. I thought Palladium was widely used in PCB's.
It's very rarely used in boards, and only certain types.

Board prices will begin to tumble soon - a lot of people will get caught out by the dropping PM values.
We'll see. Kitco and many others are saying gold and silver to remain strong thru 2-19 with some jumps here and there. I'm sitting on over 10,000 pounds of sorted PCB, maybe more. I'm going to sell them in the spring, just don't want to mess with winter much.

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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by niks neims » January 17th, 2019, 6:46 am

anachronism wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 10:07 am
dropping PM values
sage advice, based on solid foundation of thoroughly thoughtful arguments! Just look at the palladium ticker today - a disaster!
fun must be had at all costs

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anachronism
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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by anachronism » January 17th, 2019, 7:01 am

niks neims wrote:
January 17th, 2019, 6:46 am
anachronism wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 10:07 am
dropping PM values
sage advice, based on solid foundation of thoroughly thoughtful arguments! Just look at the palladium ticker today - a disaster!
Obviously I worded it clumsily. By values I meant concentrations.
If you keep on doing what you've always done then you'll just keep on getting what you've always got.

"If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, or watch the things you gave your life to broken, and stoop and build ‘em up with wornout tools" -- Rudyard Kipling

"The best diplomat that I know is a fully-loaded phaser bank." -- Lt. Cdr. Montgomery Scott

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niks neims
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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by niks neims » January 17th, 2019, 7:06 am

anachronism wrote:
January 17th, 2019, 7:01 am
niks neims wrote:
January 17th, 2019, 6:46 am
anachronism wrote:
January 14th, 2019, 10:07 am
dropping PM values
sage advice, based on solid foundation of thoroughly thoughtful arguments! Just look at the palladium ticker today - a disaster!
Obviously I worded it clumsily. By values I meant concentrations.
I kid, I kid, a loving joke, that`s all

I am willing to take some betting action, though:

What do you propose - how will change the spot price (by kitco, in USD, as shown in the ticker on the bottom of the page) of gold during next 6 months?
fun must be had at all costs

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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by snoman701 » January 17th, 2019, 7:18 am

No...he’s saying that boards have less and less pm value and the guys that have been making all their profit on the rich 90’s era boards are going to be hurting.


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anachronism
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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by anachronism » January 17th, 2019, 7:47 am

It's a matter of perspective, volume and ongoing hard data. From refinery returns over time you can track what's going on with similar grades of product. Then again you're only going to get reliable data with lots of repeat loads.

Nik you've alluded to me being "all mouth and no trousers" on a number of occasions so let's nail the perspective. Excuse the mess, we're not finished building the new plant but the central area pallets are all incoming kit for processing this month so far. Pallets of equipment to strip and pallets of boards/RAM/processors etc.
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If you keep on doing what you've always done then you'll just keep on getting what you've always got.

"If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, or watch the things you gave your life to broken, and stoop and build ‘em up with wornout tools" -- Rudyard Kipling

"The best diplomat that I know is a fully-loaded phaser bank." -- Lt. Cdr. Montgomery Scott

kurtak
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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by kurtak » January 17th, 2019, 8:14 am

So back to my original question - what's driving the price of PGMs - Pd in particular

I may be wrong - but it can't be just "paper investment" - there must be some "physical demand"

If it was driven by paper investment - investors would not be targeting just Pd on the speculation of rising PMs because if that was the case you would see gold & silver taking off as well

After all - gold & silver are the real metals that drive the metals market when speculation drive the market & gold & silver are not even close to keep pace with Pd

Pd has gone up $491 in the last 6 months & $170 in the last 30 days

By comparison - gold has only gone up $66 in last 6 months & $44 in last 30 days

So clearly (I believe) paper investment is not what is driving the price of PGMS (Pd in particular) other wise we would be seeing similar rising of prices of gold & silver

as of the time of this post - gold is down 10 cents - while Pd is up $57 --- if paper was driving this I would think we would also be seeing gold up BY A LOT :!:

There must (I think) be some real physical demand for PGMs (Pd) :?:

Kurt

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Re: So what's driving the price of PGMs

Post by anachronism » January 17th, 2019, 8:20 am

Kurt - I gather that recently there have been developments with regards to alloying Pd - this many or may not expand the uses of the metal.

Also if you look to who is producing most of the Pd these days and their ability to manipulate markets there may be some small explanantion there.

Personally I think it's market manipulation and manipulating Pd is far easier than gold.
If you keep on doing what you've always done then you'll just keep on getting what you've always got.

"If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, or watch the things you gave your life to broken, and stoop and build ‘em up with wornout tools" -- Rudyard Kipling

"The best diplomat that I know is a fully-loaded phaser bank." -- Lt. Cdr. Montgomery Scott

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