aqua regia neutralized with baking soda

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It was not of malice or arrogance.
This is chemistry and one letter may lead you from safe to in danger, so it is paramount that one is correct in regards to the terms.
And you told him to Neutralise with Sulfamic acid which is the wrong term.
We destroy/convert the Nitric to Sulfuric acid by using hot Sulfamic acid.
Some push the pH up a notch before precipitating the Gold. It is not necessary and there is always the risk of pushing too hard so end up in Neutral area. Then the most used precipitation methods don’t work well.

I have never seen the term Tiffany Blue used in refining.

The most common Silver salt is SilverNitrate which is colourless, Copper nitrate on the other hand has a rather beautiful blue colour.

Have you read C.M. Hoke’s book yourself?

Again Welcome🤓😏

I don’t think there are many things in recovery and refining that has not been debated in detail in here.

So get acquainted with that
 
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I don’t have to get acquainted with anything! I said what I said, and I meant what I said. I said was attempting to say in a way that was understandable that’s all. Now, is it science absolutely! Does it need to be overly complicated no it doesn’t! I did not tell him to neutralize sulfuric acid. I don’t think you read my original post. I will say this, this is a interesting introduction to this forum that I am a member of, an annual member of! You keep accusing me of things that I did not do just stop!
 

4metals

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I don’t have to get acquainted with anything! I said what I said, and I meant what I said. I said was attempting to say in a way that was understandable that’s all. Now, is it science absolutely! Does it need to be overly complicated no it doesn’t! I did not tell him to neutralize sulfuric acid. I don’t think you read my original post. I will say this, this is a interesting introduction to this forum that I am a member of, an annual member of! You keep accusing me of things that I did not do just stop!
Dear Mr Opulence,

You are correct, you do not have to get acquainted with anything, but it is apparent you should, because you do not know what you are saying and even scarier than that is you don't know what you don't know. I could go through your post point by point and show you what is wrong. In fact there are many members here who could do exactly that as well. But from the way this is starting out, it seems that would be a waste of time.

There are many members here who can and will help you to reach your goals in refining. But if you come here with a chip on your shoulder most will choose to ignore you. You see, much like you do not have to get acquainted with anything, members here don't have to help you learn either. It's a give and take.

And as much as we appreciate supporting members, it is not a get out of jail free card. Play nice and learn, be abrasive and see who lines up to help you.

Your choice.
 
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Dear Mr Opulence,

You are correct, you do not have to get acquainted with anything, but it is apparent you should, because you do not know what you are saying and even scarier than that is you don't know what you don't know. I could go through your post point by point and show you what is wrong. In fact there are many members here who could do exactly that as well. But from the way this is starting out, it seems that would be a waste of time.

There are many members here who can and will help you to reach your goals in refining. But if you come here with a chip on your shoulder most will choose to ignore you. You see, much like you do not have to get acquainted with anything, members here don't have to help you learn either. It's a give and take.

And as much as we appreciate supporting members, it is not a get out of jail free card. Play nice and learn, be abrasive and see who lines up to help you.

Your choice.
not being abrasive.


I am not being abrasive. When I first read that thread, it reminded me of when I first started. I did not tell anyone to do anything with acids I also did not tell anyone how to refine anything. All I did was say that baking soda drops everything out solution and once it settles, the solution pH should be ph7. I do not think nor would I ever tell anyone to use baking soda to refine anything. Also, being a new member it’s not to get out of jail free card, I agree. Nor was I implying that it should be the case. What was being said to me was abrasive. I made a lot of those same mistakes first starting out, let me just be clear with that. What I was attempting to convey was just that. At the same time, I back down form no one and I will never tell anyone to do anything. All I did there was talk about how I experience some of the same things, at one point, when I first started. All I did was give recommendations based off of what I experienced in the same or similar situation(s). What was a problem with that? The main point was to Develop and execute a game plan to reach whatever goal that was trying to be reached. Now, legally I can’t tell anyone how to process anything that is also why I did not do that and will not. I understand that this can be a place to find answers to questions but, I also thought it was a place to be able to talk to like minded people without insults and rudeness I experienced my first day on here.
This is the last I’m going to say on this topic.




Edited by modarator:
The post gave impressions that 4Metals had said things he did not say.
We assume this is the cause of the quoting system.
Everything that has been changed are in Italic
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Yggdrasil

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I was thinking of giving you a reply in a PM.
But for the education of others I will take it here point by point.
Your text in bold black and my reply in Bold red
Hi David Ray,

I am new to this website as well. Also, when I first started out, I did experience some of the same problems and was under some of the same misconceptions. I will add Photos to show what I experienced after I explain a few things. First, yes baking soda will drop gold. At the same time, it will drop everything else as well. Baking soda will neutralize your acid causing all impurities to drop from solution, especially after you let it settle completely. I the first thing that I think you need to look at is the “reactivity series of metals chart.” That will give you a better understanding of how these different metals react in different solutions and build a game plan, for how to tackle your situation. Also, different metals will come out as different colors, when it drops from solution, depending on what type of method you use. For example, silver will have a Tiffany blue color that’s the reason for the jewelry store to have the color as apart of there theme and logo. The Logo part I can't say anything about, but the color of silver in solution is clear as glass. Gold, can be a purple color especially when there are small or trace amounts of it and etc.… what I would do if I was you is
Dissolved Gold is from slight yellow to deep orange-red depending on concentration, the Stannous test is violet to black depending on concentration.


First, get a copy of the reactivity series of metal chart. You can type that into the search engine go to images and print one out.
Good idea

Second, look at Hope’s book like others have suggested on the forum.
Good idea again, but it is Hoke's book and don't just look at it, read it and then read it again.

Third, get some simple PH strips. Find out what the pH of your drinking water is, find out what your pH of coffee is, find out what the pH of soda (soda pop) is. (your acid solution should be the same pH as your drinking water when neutralized (ph 7)). After adding baking soda.
Good idea again, but drinking water is anywhere around 6 and 8
7 is neutral


Fourth, get you some precious metals testing solution that you can add to the solution it will help you so that you’re not chasing after something that may not be there. (Don’t add it to the entire amount that you’re processing make sure you add it to a sample amount.)
Basically a good idea, but needs more explaining. You can buy Stannous Chloride or make it yourself.
Use it by dripping a drop of solution on a cotton bud and then a drop of Stannous on the same bud after.


Also, make sure before you attempt to drop gold you neutralize the acid. I recommend, SULFAMIC Acid. make sure your solution still has a little heat to it and add slowly. Omegageek64 has a video on it on YouTube. I hope all of this helps and good luck on your journey!
Depending on how you dissolved the Gold and if it was AR how well you controlled the addition of Nitric you may or may not need to deNOx the solution.

If you managed to not overuse the Nitric you can just precipitate the Gold. If however you have surplus Nitric in solution we need to get rid of it.
We can add more Gold to use up the Nitric, we can evaporate to a syrup and add HCl until no more brown fumes, add Urea (Not a good solution) or add Sulfamic Acid.
Sulfamic acid need to be around 70-90 Centigrade to work, this will convert the surplus Nitric and NOx to Sulfuric acid.

We do NOT neutralize the Nitric acid, it will neutralize all acids and you will end up with Hydroxides and the normal precipitation agents will not work.

Regarding the comment on the reply to an old post.
I always do that to inform the new poster that they can't expect a reply from the OP.
I said nothing about it being wrong, as 4metals said it may be a refresher of the thread.

From your second post.
Pictures omitted as they are in this post already.

The first picture is me separating the Tiffany blue from the other metals.

Depending on how you dissolved the Gold and if it was AR how well you controlled the addition of Nitric you may or may not need to deNOx the solution.

If you managed to not overuse the Nitric you can just precipitate the Gold. If however you have surplus Nitric in solution we need to get rid of it.
We can add more Gold to use up the Nitric, we can evaporate to a syrup and add HCl until no more brown fumes, add Urea (Not a good solution) or add Sulfamic Acid.
Sulfamic acid need to be around 70-90 Centigrade to work, this will convert the surplus Nitric and NOx to Sulfuric acid.

We do NOT neutralize the Nitric acid, it will neutralize all acids and you will end up with Hydroxides and the normal precipitation agents will not work.

The second picture is an example of a precious metal testing solution.
This is a bottle of Stannous Chloride, you can buy them or make it yourself by dissolving Tin in HCl.
The colors is quite distinct and easy to recognize for most precious metals.


1659882898726.jpeg


The third picture, is when I made the same mistake a while ago and the end result of it (adding baking soda to solution and let it settle that your coworker did.) No Comment possible
 

swaminair

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By the way I am not nosy but understand what yggdrasil is "he is fond of chemistry and cannot tolerate anything impure being spread or cannot tolerate societal harm by toxicity" -this is what I found in the forum with my Nuance he also advised me about refining. He is of such kinda person so no harm in his mind always I understood this first before I made this message.
Alike opulence was opting the provide some best experience he had with using Baking soda.But as we know from his "only share the best of the output not a word off the chemistry as forum is being populated by people /members sharing from all walks of life" so he points safety both for environment and material (avoiding losses first of all), so Mr. opulence of aurum may not misunderstand his words as arrogance.I found him(yggdrasil) before few days and from his sharing I found his temptation to serve the best. so came out to explain amidst the heat of sharing .

As I FOUND EARLIER THIS IS A NOBLE FORUM AND GOOD MEMBERS.NO QUARELLS.
IT'S JUST LACK OF UNDERSTANDING ONE'S QUALITIES SHARED,DUE TO THE HAPPINESS IN SHARING.


A REQUEST TO FORUM ADMIN AND MODS:

meanwhile I request the forum admin to provide one more option in our forum called "test ideas with various methods and output of refining" so as to refine some more and updating our experience all through.Hope this request is born out of pure will and no intend to offend the past methods which are fruitful day to day till this second.
 
Joined
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By the way I am not nosy but understand what yggdrasil is "he is fond of chemistry and cannot tolerate anything impure being spread or cannot tolerate societal harm by toxicity" -this is what I found in the forum with my Nuance he also advised me about refining. He is of such kinda person so no harm in his mind always I understood this first before I made this message.
Alike opulence was opting the provide some best experience he had with using Baking soda.But as we know from his "only share the best of the output not a word off the chemistry as forum is being populated by people /members sharing from all walks of life" so he points safety both for environment and material (avoiding losses first of all), so Mr. opulence of aurum may not misunderstand his words as arrogance.I found him(yggdrasil) before few days and from his sharing I found his temptation to serve the best. so came out to explain amidst the heat of sharing .

As I FOUND EARLIER THIS IS A NOBLE FORUM AND GOOD MEMBERS.NO QUARELLS.
IT'S JUST LACK OF UNDERSTANDING ONE'S QUALITIES SHARED,DUE TO THE HAPPINESS IN SHARING.


A REQUEST TO FORUM ADMIN AND MODS:

meanwhile I request the forum admin to provide one more option in our forum called "test ideas with various methods and output of refining" so as to refine some more and updating our experience all through.Hope this request is born out of pure will and no intend to offend the past methods which are fruitful day to day till this second.
Hi Swaminair,

Thank you for explaining that. I can understand someone trying to ensure that proper information is being put out and trying to ensure that if a person decides to take on this type of craft, that they are following best practices in regards to methods and safety.

Truthfully, I wish I would have came across this form a few years ago when I started experimenting. I do believe and think, based off of other information that I have seen here on the form, this form would have saved me a lot of painful days and nights.

When I first started this craft, all I had was my hazmat certification from the military with laboratory experience, Laboratory experience in college, C.M. Hoke’s book, and trial and error due to direct experimentation.

What made me join wise, a post that had to do with attempting to buy large amounts of computer scrap. I was thinking that maybe joining this form could help me to do so or, find people in here that could potentially be legitimate sellers. The great thing is, I did find that. At the same time, I’m still learning how to maneuver through the form. I really don’t get to talk to anyone that operates in this Realm of things and it was exciting to Read that, others have made the same mistakes and was under some of the same misconceptions and refine that I was at first.

Thank you for your post and your kind words!
 

swaminair

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I got you mate and happy to be with you in this forum.Luckily mass or small scrap buying is ridiculous as only scammers roam for the Gold which is our money.Sincerely I understood this when scammers approached many ways to pluck the existing gold with us.Funny creatures,from alibaba to ebay you opt to be plundered .Have to be wise and our forum makes the best to tute members.
 

Seny2021

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Messages
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Honestly, you may be chasing after nothing. Did your friend tell you how much material
or what kinds of materials that he "processed"? In small quantities of low value scrap, you
may be the proud owner of more hazardous waste than you do precious metals in sludge form.

See if you can determine what the source material was and perhaps someone here can help
you see if anything can be done with this mess. If there is no more than possibly a gram or
two of gold, will it be worth it to try and fix someone else's problem over $85 worth of gold
in two grams that may be hidden in what you were given?

Just trying to be helpful. It is a fun hobby but it may not be best for you to start like this
in this pursuit. Just saying. 8)

Hi, my name is David Rey and im new in refining gold and in this forum.

Let me tell you a little about my self, im a computer tech and i work with a lot of electronics, i use to invest my money buying gold from APMEX, I like to buy gold because it is an long term investment and i have been done reading and research about buying and selling but i like more to buy gold and silver.

one of my coworkers was studying how to refine gold, but he only looked at youtube videos, i told him gold refining was a process and have to be careful about what he was doing in terms of safety and what steps to follow and after a while he could not get a single gram of solid gold from cell phone pins, boards and IC chips. I know he made the mistake of putting the whole board in nitric acid without cleaning the board and taking off other components like surface mount resistors and little pieces of steel, iron and speaker magnets. finally he gave up and he was about put in the trash can some plastic bottles filled with what i know is nitric acid and aqua regia, some of the bottles have a orange red mud, others have red wine color mud, i asked him to write everything he did before he handled all the acid containers and mud containers for proper neutralization and disposal.

In a nitric acid container he put the whole boards without taking off small electronic components, after the nitric acid did its work, he filtered the remaining metals together with the gold flakes and put it in a glass container filled with nitric acid 42 Be 68%, hydrochloric acid 20 Be 32%, one part nitric acid three parts hydrochloric acid and the next day he added sulfuric acid to drop inpurities, he filtered again and when using sodium sulfite the gold will not drop, only awhite foam will show and then it will disappear every time he puts sodium sulfite in the aqua regia and nothing will drop.

In separate container the tried to cement the gold putting a lot of copper, until now, every piece of copper he put in the aqua regia it will desappear and the gold will not cement, another thing he did is to add baking soda while the aqua regia was boiling and he ended up with a black crust in the reaction flask and lasting he did is to add baking soda to the aqua regia in three 24oz plastic containers and the result was a red and orange mud in the solution and that what he have done until he gave up and just give me all the chemicals and lab glass, for the reaction flask with the black crust i used clean aqua regia to clean it and save the acid because it turn clear yellow again after it dissolve the black crust, the reaction flask looks expensive because it has good known brand stamp and the rest of glassware ass well, he gave me all the glass ware as well i think he got frustrated, i asked him to do a research and read before doing something but he didnt and just did what he saw on youtube.

I downloaded a copy of hokes book from another location and i have being reading, i got most of the chemicas needed to do the process, I really like to read but i cant find a section that describes dropping gold with baking soda instead of copperas, or boiling the aqua regia to get rid of nitric acid.

for the used nitric acid container i did a little experiment and i ad hydrocloric acid to a small beaker and i got clear cristals from the solution wich i think are siver salt or silver nitrate, the silver crystals are mixed with green crystals and some have a combination of both colors, some of them are flat and long like triangles.

to get familiar with the process i downloaded hokes book and follow the direction described in the refining precious metals and commonest case section but i cant find anything that describes dropping gold with baking soda, only for accidental contact with skin and how to neutralize it, ia have been looking on the forum as well without luck.

This is what i know to this point, any help will be greatly appreciated concerning the orange mug of baking soda in the aqua regia containers, i have never done gold refining and i think it is a science and now since my friend gave me the lab glassware, chemicals and some tools i want to learn and read everything i need to get familiar with process before attempting to drop the gold from the baking soda mud in the aqua regia containers

thanks for taking the time to read, please any reply will be greatly appreciated
Hi David

I'm also new to this, call me Seny
And I'm new to gold refining and recycling.
Because I'm new to it I'm focusing only on recycling ewaste for gold, so got about 20kg of cellphone boards cleaned all, separated all the IC chips from the boards got about 1.5kg of ic chips.
Next Friday will start with the process and will let you guys know, just waiting for the chemicals I ordered.
 

Yggdrasil

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Hi David

I'm also new to this, call me Seny
And I'm new to gold refining and recycling.
Because I'm new to it I'm focusing only on recycling ewaste for gold, so got about 20kg of cellphone boards cleaned all, separated all the IC chips from the boards got about 1.5kg of ic chips.
Next Friday will start with the process and will let you guys know, just waiting for the chemicals I ordered.
There are plenty of threads dealing with chips.
Doing it with chemicals usually is not worth it and it creates a lot of waste solutions to deal with.
Better pyrolyze and incinerate before grinding and gravity separate it.
Search the forum for dealing with ICs and Chips first.
 

Seny2021

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There are plenty of threads dealing with chips.
Doing it with chemicals usually is not worth it and it creates a lot of waste solutions to deal with.
Better pyrolyze and incinerate before grinding and gravity separate it.
Search the forum for dealing with ICs and Chips first.
I want to try the sulphuric acid method,
  • Sulfuric Acid
  • Nitric Acid
  • Hydrochloric Acid
  • Hydrofluoric Acis
  • Sodium Metabisulfite
  • Filter Paper
  • Stainless Steel Pot
 

Yggdrasil

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I want to try the sulphuric acid method,
  • Sulfuric Acid
  • Nitric Acid
  • Hydrochloric Acid
  • Hydrofluoric Acis
  • Sodium Metabisulfite
  • Filter Paper
  • Stainless Steel Pot
I strongly warn against that.
Even seasoned refiners with years of experience will not do that.
The hot boiling Sulfuric will dissolve your flesh in seconds if you spill it somewhere on your skin.
Same with Hydrofluoric acid, which adittionally will damage your skeleton if it enters your system.

Play it safe.
When you get some understandig and experience regarding reactions and dangers you will see that the common route is the safest and most productive alternative.
Do not look at the youtube videos promoting all kind of easy routes. They are edited and made for profit per view only.
And they has the ability to kill or injure you, if you follow them, for most there are no safety at all.
There are a few good videos from members like sreetips and a few others that can be recommended.
 

Daniel0007a

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Unless you really know what your doing Really strong sulfuric acid is very dangerous I got acid on my hotplate a 300-dollar one it destroyed it very quickly. It was 98 percent H2SO4. Hydrofluoric acid that stuff will kill you slowly and painfully by interfering with potassium and calcium ions in the blood and it also eats glass- stay AWAY FROM IT.
 
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I want to try the sulphuric acid method,
  • Sulfuric Acid
  • Nitric Acid
  • Hydrochloric Acid
  • Hydrofluoric Acis
  • Sodium Metabisulfite
  • Filter Paper
  • Stainless Steel Pot
Hi Seny2021,

Welcome to the form! I really hope that you take the advice and strong recommendations that was given here on not pursuing the “sulfuric acid method.” I really hope that you do more research and pursue much safer methods. I Read what others have said here and strongly recommend it to you and I think the same thing was going through their minds that was going through mine. I was thinking, “oh my God, this person is going to kill themselves!”

Now, I was looking at your list of chemicals. I was thinking you were probably trying that method because one, you’ve seen videos of it on YouTube or two, you have a abundance of sulfuric acid. In the United States, hydrochloric acid and Sulfuric acid are relatively available and cheap. The most expensive acid on your list is nitric acid. Please do not use sulfuric acid. There are much safer methods that may take a little longer but, safer is better than injuries and death.

Respectfully,
Mr Opulence
 

Daniel0007a

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Yes I know I used it to extract yew leaves making them more potent. I would not touch HF either. An Alkaloid extract with isopropanol acetate. (50 ml acetic acid, 500 ml alcohol and 20 ml sulfuric acid.) Useful acid but potent and scary.
 

Yggdrasil

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Yes I know I used it to extract yew leaves making them more potent. I would not touch HF either. An Alkaloid extract with isopropanol acetate. (50 ml acetic acid, 500 ml alcohol and 20 ml sulfuric acid.) Useful acid but potent and scary.
Is that something used for refining or recovery?
 

Seny2021

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Hi Seny2021,

Welcome to the form! I really hope that you take the advice and strong recommendations that was given here on not pursuing the “sulfuric acid method.” I really hope that you do more research and pursue much safer methods. I Read what others have said here and strongly recommend it to you and I think the same thing was going through their minds that was going through mine. I was thinking, “oh my God, this person is going to kill themselves!”

Now, I was looking at your list of chemicals. I was thinking you were probably trying that method because one, you’ve seen videos of it on YouTube or two, you have a abundance of sulfuric acid. In the United States, hydrochloric acid and Sulfuric acid are relatively available and cheap. The most expensive acid on your list is nitric acid. Please do not use sulfuric acid. There are much safer methods that may take a little longer but, safer is better than injuries and death.

Respectfully,
Mr Opulence
Thanks for the advise I have been
Seeing different methods I see that the safer way to recicle IC chips is to incinerate them to avoid sulphuric acid
 

Martijn

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Yes incineration is much better, if it's done the right way!
Not without it's own dangers though. You still need to study and build a good setup to minimize, dilute or scrub the hazardous gases.
Pyrolyse first and burn the gases completely. Retention time and air supply are very important to get full combustion. Then incinerate to white ash. Lots of info here on the forum.
A ball mill is adviced as the best option to separate the bonding wires from the legs if i'm correct. There are other techniques.

Good luck. Stay safe.
Martijn.
 

Seny2021

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Messages
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Yes incineration is much better, if it's done the right way!
Not without it's own dangers though. You still need to study and build a good setup to minimize, dilute or scrub the hazardous gases.
Pyrolyse first and burn the gases completely. Retention time and air supply are very important to get full combustion. Then incinerate to white ash. Lots of info here on the forum.
A ball mill is adviced as the best option to separate the bonding wires from the legs if i'm correct. There are other techniques.

Good luck. Stay safe.
Martijn.
Thank you so much

I would like to know in 7.200kg of cleaned cellphone boards how much gold would I get I notice that 100 celphone boards is a litle more or less 1kg
 
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