Cheap electrolysis idea?

[tinrat]

I am totally new to escrap Reclaimation. I hope to start by experimenting with silver and gold refining.
I understand the cherry picking process and hope to gain knowledge of this separation. I also have an idea I need input on.
After the “picking” harvest, could one use electrolysis to dissolve other remaining metals off the boards or wire or what have you in leftover scrap?

Here is my question:
I have a wind generator I recently acquired. I don’t wish to try to harvest electricity to run my shop as there are many more costs and requirements I haven’t the budget or inclination to try. But it can be set up to deliver a constant (most times) source of electrical energy. By utilizing this I could dissolve copper and what have you, this would be a relatively cheap use of energy. Could one then cement the metals out of solution? Further refining could be administered if needed. I have many thoughts on this as a process but have no formal education. And is saltwater the best for a cheap and easy electrolyte?
I would like to see if this might be done in a fairly easy economic fashion. Any and all criticism or promotion of said ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Don

 

[Martijn]

Electrolysis on pcb's does not work. You would have to make contact to each piece of copper trace as they dissolve and get smaller and break wlie still stuck to the board.

For copper Electrolysis you'll need a solid cast anode of at least 95% pure copper to process in sulphuric acid electrolyte and distilled water with copper sulphate added.
The copper dissolves and collects on the stainless steel cathode. Any precious metals are left behind in the anode bag as slimes.
But after cherry picking there are only base metals and solder left.
The precious metals content on e waste is low enough as it is. Going for the copper traces is just wasting time.
Sell the stripped boards as low grade pcb's.
Treat gold plated pcb fingers with the copper chloride leach. Aka AP.
Dont try salt water electrolysys or fooling around with vinegar and salt.

 

[Marcel]

Saltwater consists of sodium chloride dissolved in water. So you will create a bunch of compounds like Copper Chloride, Silver Chloride and so on. Not a good starting point for a beginner. Not easy to convert it all back to pure elements. In addition, those Chlorides are quite corrosive.
Since you are planning to use e-Waste, you may create some unwanted side products. E-Waste consists of many metals, some of them are toxic (Lead, Mercury, Selen, Arsen and others). Small traces, but if you want to make money you will need large amounts of E-scrap, which leads to considerable amounts of those problematic elements and their compounds. Not a good concept.
You mentioned vinegear. There is usually a lot of lead in old electronics. It was used to alloy the solder. Vinegear and lead can form Lead(II) acetate. A nasty poison (It tastes like sugar), to which many children have fallen victim in the past. It was an ingredient of wall paints, and children licked it from the painted materials, suffering severe brain damage or death. Not a good idea.
If you are not experienced, better start by separating the components mechanically and try to sell them as they are. F. e. you usually get more money for RAM modules on eBay, than you would ever be able to recover as precious metals with those limited means and experience, by yourself. Not to speak of the waste problem, the time, the energy, the investment in equipment.
Some old EOL electronic components sell for far much more than their value in PMs, because they are sought after for repairs.
That way your cash flow is also much faster.

 

[dpgold]

Electrolysis on pcb's does not work. You would have to make contact to each piece of copper trace as they dissolve and get smaller and break wlie still stuck to the board.

For copper Electrolysis you'll need a solid cast anode of at least 95% pure copper to process in sulphuric acid electrolyte and distilled water with copper sulphate added.
The copper dissolves and collects on the stainless steel cathode. Any precious metals are left behind in the anode bag as slimes.
But after cherry picking there are only base metals and solder left.
The precious metals content on e waste is low enough as it is. Going for the copper traces is just wasting time.
Sell the stripped boards as low grade pcb's.
Treat gold plated pcb fingers with the copper chloride leach. Aka AP.
Dont try salt water electrolysys or fooling around with vinegar and salt.

Because I saw you said not to try water and salt electrolysis I want to ask what do you think about this video , I know videos can be misleading but this one looks like it would work, the voltage is 12v 15A
Indeed this is on tiny metal pieces not PCB but I wonder what do you think about it

 

[Martijn]

Wow! Ok. I take the water and salt statement back. I was thinking more about deplating silver plate with the salt water, where you will form silver chloride until all salt is gone.
Vinegar still stands as a no go.

But this will be my next tryout. It can save on a lot of waste and chemicals. Thanks for sharing. Let's keep this thread to share our findings and fine tune the process.

Is it me or is trinity getting a lot better in safety?

Subscribed to that channel. Still beware of BFRC's

Martijn.

 

[dpgold]

yes it looks like he improved, although he is wearing just sleepers. I am not sure what would happen if there is plastic in the mix, will it melt?

 

[Martijn]

No, there is not enough heat for plastic to melt. The water can't reach 180/ 200 degrees C. Plastic parts may prevent proper contact between conductive parts.
Stirring will still be needed and I expect the current to drop when precious metals are stripped like with the sulfuric stripping cell.
So you can see the effect of stirring.
Washing and rinsing the stripped pins will be important to get all the black gold off.

This could be the end of dissolving pins in AP!! GREAT FIND!!

 

[Martijn]

Kind of funny the video says without H2SO4, but he still uses it to push out free nitric and lead.

 

[dpgold]

Kind of funny the video says without H2SO4, but he still uses it to push out free nitric and lead.

I am looking for a power source, he said it should be 12V 15A, not sure, than he says below "PC power supply you can use, 12V and 5-8amp",

 

[dpgold]

No, there is not enough heat for plastic to melt. The water can't reach 180/ 200 degrees C. Plastic parts may prevent proper contact between conductive parts.
Stirring will still be needed and I expect the current to drop when precious metals are stripped like with the sulfuric stripping cell.
So you can see the effect of stirring.
Washing and rinsing the stripped pins will be important to get all the black gold off.

This could be the end of dissolving pins in AP!! GREAT FIND!!

at some point he increased the current

 

[MicheleM]

I think H2 and NaClO in water with acidic PH is produced, so final products should be H2 and Cl2, that is what strip the Au plating

 

[dpgold]

I think H2 and NaClO in water with acidic PH is produced, so final products should be H2 and Cl2, that is what strip the Au plating

Hi, do you know what kind of power supply is needed for that type of electrolysis? I have found some which have the range 0-10 Amps 0-10 Volts which are more affordable and then some bigger ones 0 to 20 Amps and up to 0-36 V which are perhaps twice as much in price. However I am not sure what I need for that type of electrolysis and then maybe some more .....
This video shows a lot of info about what happens chemically during electrolysis and for somebody with a bit more understanding of chemistry it should make the process clearer, looks like Chlorine gas is dissolving the gold ?

 

[MicheleM]

The Amperage is a unit of measure for the electrical current , and the current is the variation of charge in a certain interval of time, more current means more charges in a unit of time , that means a more "fast" process at a given voltage . The "real" important physical quantity is the voltage difference, that poorly speaking means the max amount of work that a certain system is able to deliver, and V*I is the power ( Watt): the quantity of energy released Ina certain amount of time. So If a given chemical reaction needs to overcome a given energy barrier to begin, you need a specific voltage. There are theoretical values of these energies in chemical book , i think they are called "oxidation potential " or something like that. Au potential oxidation respect to hydrogen (?) i remember something like 3.3 V. I always used 5 V. The optimal amperage depends from a lot of things, like the quantity of plated objects you put inside your electrolytic device, if you are in hurry ecc ecc.. i used a power supply fixed a 5 Volt and free amperage between 0 and max 5 A. A lot of power means also a lot of heat, a lot of gas produced in the unit of time...so i think you should be careful and not to follow a given recipe.

 

[dpgold]

The Amperage is a unit of measure for the electrical current , and the current is the variation of charge in a certain interval of time, more current means more charges in a unit of time , that means a more "fast" process at a given voltage . The "real" important physical quantity is the voltage difference, that poorly speaking means the max amount of work that a certain system is able to deliver, and V*I is the power ( Watt): the quantity of energy released Ina certain amount of time. So If a given chemical reaction needs to overcome a given energy barrier to begin, you need a specific voltage. There are theoretical values of these energies in chemical book , i think they are called "oxidation potential " or something like that. Au potential oxidation respect to hydrogen (?) i remember something like 3.3 V. I always used 5 V. The optimal amperage depends from a lot of things, like the quantity of plated objects you put inside your electrolytic device, if you are in hurry ecc ecc.. i used a power supply fixed a 5 Volt and free amperage between 0 and max 5 A. A lot of power means also a lot of heat, a lot of gas produced in the unit of time...so i think you should be careful and not to follow a given recipe.

This is a very good explanation, I have to study more the concept of electricity. Then I could experiment with 3.3 volts and increase amperage, then 5 volts and increase amperage and so forth. I found some good variable power sources up to 10 Amps. The price level of these is much lower than those up to 20 A. Maybe I should buy one up to 10 Amps for now.

 

[MicheleM]

Useful hints:
a digital variable power supply allows to see clearly (because the digital numbers on a screen) current drop .

The distance between the electrodes (+,- poles) matters.

The resistivity of the solution is temperature dependent.

fume-hood or working outside. I do not like salt water because in my opinion Cl2 is worse than SO2 and because the lower boiling temperature than H2SO4 .

 

[Martijn]

Up to 10 amps will do fine.
Just set the current to a limited value, the voltage will follow. You can increase the voltage if desired current is not reached.
If the desired current is reached, you can lower the voltage to the point where the current starts dropping.

Electricity basics:
Tention (in Volts AC or DC) is the potential to create a flow and can be compared to the level of the water in a dam, the flow of water is the current (in Ampere)
The valve to control the flow is the load with a certain resistance.
If the valve is closed, the resistance is very high and no flow will occur.
Opened valve, low resistance, high current.

Current limited: voltage has to be sufficient to provide the current through the load that is connected.

Martijn.

 

[Martijn]

As with any electrolytical cell, bubbles should be avoided to prevent depletion zones around electrodes and exessive wearing of electrode material as well as hydrogen and chlorine gases produced.

 

[Shark]

The power supply in the video is set at 12 volts @ 5 amps. That seems a bit excessive and is the reason for all of the heat. As for being excessive, that is just my guess. I have several different type power supplies here and may try it later this week if I have enough pins.

 

[richoc]

Electrolysis on pcb's does not work. You would have to make contact to each piece of copper trace as they dissolve and get smaller and break wlie still stuck to the board.

For copper Electrolysis you'll need a solid cast anode of at least 95% pure copper to process in sulphuric acid electrolyte and distilled water with copper sulphate added.
The copper dissolves and collects on the stainless steel cathode. Any precious metals are left behind in the anode bag as slimes.
But after cherry picking there are only base metals and solder left.
The precious metals content on e waste is low enough as it is. Going for the copper traces is just wasting time.
Sell the stripped boards as low grade pcb's.
Treat gold plated pcb fingers with the copper chloride leach. Aka AP.
Dont try salt water electrolysys or fooling around with vinegar and salt.

Martijn, I can and do use electrolysis to strip PCB.
I prefer to do it on defective or over run PCB that have never had any components mounted.

I have designed a production model of the process but as yet have not found the correct vessel to make the units.
Most likely will need it custom made as the PCB are run in many sized sheets and that takes money.
I could sell these to the manufacture and they could recover the bad PCB in house and put it right back in to production reducing the cost and eliminating bad runs.

But currently just another one of my designs that is stuck in limbo needing money to back it for production.
Well it is on paper also, I have made basic blue prints for the units.

 

[Lino1406]

The voltage required is mainly the sum of redox potential difference between cathode and anode and bath resistivity multiplied by amperage. The value 3.3 v seems to come from cyanide gold electrolysis