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The top 486 VLB board would easily sell on ebay for far more than gold value. It looks to be in great shape.

... just saying. :D

Have you seen boardsort's website? They have examples of different grades and their payout. Using that it would give you a rough picture of how much gold there is in different grades.
http://boardsort.com/payout.php

The way to avoid being cheated is to take a representative sample (a science and art in itself) and let the company know that it was done. That way the refiner knows that the customer have a good sense of what the lot contains.

If you are dealing in big enough lots you should have a representative following the lot through fragmentation and sampling. Then four representative samples for the lot is taken and sealed. One sample is for the refinery to make an assay for payouts, one for the customer to assay and if the difference between the samples are too big then the two remaining sealed ones could be sent to a third party assayer to make a final assay that the payout is based on.

The best way to keep people honest is to let them know that you know.

Göran
 
g_axelsson said:
The best way to keep people honest is to let them know that you know.

Göran

And you would be amazed at how many people suddenly choose not to deal with you when you know that they know that you know. 8) 8) 8)
 
g_axelsson said:
The top 486 VLB board would easily sell on ebay for far more than gold value. It looks to be in great shape.

... just saying. :D

Have you seen boardsort's website? They have examples of different grades and their payout. Using that it would give you a rough picture of how much gold there is in different grades.
http://boardsort.com/payout.php

The way to avoid being cheated is to take a representative sample (a science and art in itself) and let the company know that it was done. That way the refiner knows that the customer have a good sense of what the lot contains.

If you are dealing in big enough lots you should have a representative following the lot through fragmentation and sampling. Then four representative samples for the lot is taken and sealed. One sample is for the refinery to make an assay for payouts, one for the customer to assay and if the difference between the samples are too big then the two remaining sealed ones could be sent to a third party assayer to make a final assay that the payout is based on.

The best way to keep people honest is to let them know that you know.

Göran
Unfortunately, the "analysis" is not so easy to do here. There are not so many laboratories dealing with precious metals (and all of them are state-owned). Besides everything else, so far all I managed to find is a very expensive analysis .... unfortunately there is no such possibility

the material itself (boards) we already sort (like on boards.com) and yes, they know that we “know” that some group is more expensive and some is cheaper, they just say that the result is much lower than the same board com if converted to currency ... + many who are engaged in this or a similar business claim that the plants are brazenly deceiving since no one can reliably verify them. Entrance to production is not possible.

I want to ask you at least for an approximate output per ton. I understand that you definitely don’t know, but I think about someone should know. after all, those who buy, hand over for processing to a refinery should somehow consider their profits ...
 
poyalo said:
I want to ask you at least for an approximate output per ton. I understand that you definitely don’t know, but I think about someone should know. after all, those who buy, hand over for processing to a refinery should somehow consider their profits ...

It's rare that you will find someone willing to disclose that. The people who have those figures have spent a lot of money to buy that data. Your situation in Russia is a difficult one because trying to get around the state system is often bad for your health.
 
anachronism said:
poyalo said:
I want to ask you at least for an approximate output per ton. I understand that you definitely don’t know, but I think about someone should know. after all, those who buy, hand over for processing to a refinery should somehow consider their profits ...

It's rare that you will find someone willing to disclose that. The people who have those figures have spent a lot of money to buy that data. Your situation in Russia is a difficult one because trying to get around the state system is often bad for your health.
I understand this, therefore, I ask that someone can at least give these numbers in private messages ... solely for understanding that they are deceiving us or not. otherwise, we can’t even swear at the factory because we are not sure that we are right ...
 
poyalo said:
hello to all forum participants!
My name is Alexander, I'm from Russia. Everything is pretty bad in the field of processing boards (as in the rest and in many other respects, but this is a separate topic for discussion =))
I really need to know the approximate exit from the boards with the components. Motherboards (old), Motherboards (new 478 socket and above), video cards and more. I know that the content is measured in ppm (100-200 per ton), but I don’t know what categories have which categories of boards. We rent boards for processing at a local plant, but I'm sure they cheat on us ... Our processing market is not developed - the state does not allow precious metals to be allocated to anyone except state-owned factories and therefore they are monopolists. Please help (if you do not want to advertise this information - you can send it in private messages) I am sure you have much more experience in processing than we do. THANKS IN ADVANCE!
In the photo are examples of our boards that we sort by category.

привет саша!

What exactly is it you are asking here - you want to know do they cheat you or not? Nobody can answer you that because we don't know what exactly you sent to them, nobody can answer you 100 % especially because even in one somewhat standard category like :
Motherboards (new 478 socket and above)
the variance of PM and thus the end value of material can fluctuate wildly...
Me (us) saying that small socket motherboards contain for example 70-140 ppm (grams per ton) of gold won't be of any use to you since the amplitude is much too wide and there is also other metals, etc.

You could simplify and post here the total price eur/kg what you get for your recycled boards (or send me a PM), that can be easier determined as too high or too low, also you yourself can compare what you get with boardsort.com or http://www.comet-trade.de/preise_e.htm (I personally like their categories on small-socket MB better) pricing, it's good enough for rough guidelines... In bulk you won't get 50% more than those guys are offering and you shouldn't settle for 50 % less...
 
poyalo said:
I understand this, therefore, I ask that someone can at least give these numbers in private messages ... solely for understanding that they are deceiving us or not. otherwise, we can’t even swear at the factory because we are not sure that we are right ...

It's not that simple even if you know the rough amplitude PPM gold should fall in, especially if you have not packed boards yourself:

1. Maybe your small socket MB were not "clean" - aluminium heatsinks, batteries and steel&plastic CPU brackets still attached, it can inflate the weight significantly, thus bringing down the gold PPM

2. Maybe there were removed components from motherboards - BGA bridges or IC's for example - that can also lower the expected yield significantly

3. Even if everything was in order - of course the refiner is not going to cheat you so bluntly as to claim that he recovered only 20 PPM gold from standard small socket, of course not. His numbers will fall in the rough amplitude of 70-140 g/t, but you have no way of knowing what was the real number maybe 75, maybe 130....
 
poyalo said:
I understand this, therefore, I ask that someone can at least give these numbers in private messages ... solely for understanding that they are deceiving us or not. otherwise, we can’t even swear at the factory because we are not sure that we are right ...

I think you miss my point. There's an awful lot of people who have been "told" that certain products give certain yields. They know nothing first hand, and it's not reliable.

Why would the very few people who really know what the yields are give away hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bought and paid for knowledge to some person on the internet either in open forum or in private message?

Sure as I said plenty will give you educated guesses based upon what refineries tell them to expect but trust me when I say that building any expectations based upon that knowledge is not a sensible option.

I'm not attempting to be harsh. This is business.
 
niks neims said:
poyalo said:
hello to all forum participants!
My name is Alexander, I'm from Russia. Everything is pretty bad in the field of processing boards (as in the rest and in many other respects, but this is a separate topic for discussion =))
I really need to know the approximate exit from the boards with the components. Motherboards (old), Motherboards (new 478 socket and above), video cards and more. I know that the content is measured in ppm (100-200 per ton), but I don’t know what categories have which categories of boards. We rent boards for processing at a local plant, but I'm sure they cheat on us ... Our processing market is not developed - the state does not allow precious metals to be allocated to anyone except state-owned factories and therefore they are monopolists. Please help (if you do not want to advertise this information - you can send it in private messages) I am sure you have much more experience in processing than we do. THANKS IN ADVANCE!
In the photo are examples of our boards that we sort by category.

привет саша!

What exactly is it you are asking here - you want to know do they cheat you or not? Nobody can answer you that because we don't know what exactly you sent to them, nobody can answer you 100 % especially because even in one somewhat standard category like :
Motherboards (new 478 socket and above)
the variance of PM and thus the end value of material can fluctuate wildly...
Me (us) saying that small socket motherboards contain for example 70-140 ppm (grams per ton) of gold won't be of any use to you since the amplitude is much too wide and there is also other metals, etc.

You could simplify and post here the total price eur/kg what you get for your recycled boards (or send me a PM), that can be easier determined as too high or too low, also you yourself can compare what you get with boardsort.com or http://www.comet-trade.de/preise_e.htm (I personally like their categories on small-socket MB better) pricing, it's good enough for rough guidelines... In bulk you won't get 50% more than those guys are offering and you shouldn't settle for 50 % less...
привет ! =)
as I said, we sort boards in the same manner as on boardsort.com sites, I sort them personally, I can say "do it yourself" lol .. so there are no blockages there is no aluminum radiator or other batteries or excess plastic (except for the one that take off). in general, the look of the boards is quite "salable."
The fact that the result for precious metals can be different - I understand too, but still I see (at the prices of buyers - the same boardsort.com) that there is some kind of gradation ... that is, if they offer a price for old motherboards (Pentium 1 , 486, etc.) then they probably know how much metal will receive a minimum, certainly not less. And our refining efforts often go just below the price of boardsort.com ... as if we were just selling them boards. But this is a different country and logistics ... you understand = (
 
Despite your wast knowledge and willingness to share it, you have the remarkable ability to annoy me instantly, Jon :)

no offense ;)

anachronism said:
thousands of dollars worth of bought and paid for knowledge

Maybe I am missing your point about what you mean by "knowledge", but these guys : https://img-labor.de/ can analyze a sample (few kg) of boards to the highest precision, for about 500 eur... You will have to write them yourself for a price quote...

I'd like to note that I have not used their services, neither have I refined any Motherboards myself or dealt directly with end refiner so, since I'd fall in to the
anachronism said:
There's an awful lot of people
category :), keep reading at your own risk :)

But actually I think I understand your quandry quite well, Aleksandr:
poyalo said:
And our refining efforts often go just below the price of boardsort.com ... as if we were just selling them boards. But this is a different country and logistics ... you understand = (
Until recently I was in the same puzzle myself (for a large part I still am :)) - Despite gathering a few tons of boards, only offers I got from refineries (even bigger ones) basically promised the same thing - an amplitude of expected yield per category of material, minus quite significant Treatment and Refining charges and payment on only 90-95% of metals recovered - their total expenses, by my math, somewhere near 30% of total lot value (not counting the logistics costs), which when multiplied by their expected yield only would net me around the same money (or even little less) than, for example, boardsort.com price... I never went through with it, since their quoted yield amplitudes were far too wide (for example 70-140 PPM Au)... worst case scenario (if they claim that there were only 70 Au PPM) I could lose out noticeably.
In the end I managed to find local buyer for a little higher than boardsort.com price and sold most of my boards for fixed price ;)...

I think I understand it all a little better now, the disparity of PPM values even inside "boardsort.com type categories" actually are that huge, there are some "70 Au PPM small socket motherboards" and there are some "140 Au PPM small socket motherboards" out there and everything in between, maybe this is the "thousand dollar knowledge" Jon is referring to - maybe his point is that the boards should be sorted in much more detail, for example DELL made 2000 enterprise type boards have 110 Au PPM, but HP made 2003 personal PC boards have 85 Au PPM... we can only guess, he very carefully chooses what knowledge to share :)

Anyways my advice is threefold:
1)If you have reasonably sized operation and you need to get reliable payout - sell your boards for fixed price, heck if you can get them to your western border, send me some pictures in PM :)
2)If you want to continue working with your current refiner - study this forum, particularly posts by the user (admin) "4metals", you can find many useful advices and tricks how to protect your interests, it will take some effort from you though, like witnessing the sampling, etc.
3)If you have a large turnover of boards, try to look beyond "boardsort.com type categories", you'll need a lot of turnover volume for that, though
 
I totally get (I think... :wink: ) what Jon is saying. Experience and keeping track on what you buy and what the yield is will decide if you make money or not. Especially on larger lots. If you can undercut the competition when bidding on a lot because you know that you still make enough money you will get more throughput. The more you process the leaner margin you can live on.

If you don't know exactly what a lot will give in return you need larger margins and you will loose more contracts to competitors. So to build experience you might have to take some risks and now and then loose some money if you paid too much for a lot.

We all have our secrets that permits us to offer a service that no one else can. Even I have a few things I rather not share as it might give me an edge sometimes.

Sure, you could send off various samples for assay but at 500 euro per sample it will soon get very expensive. And if you spend all that money to get an edge, would you just give it away for free?

I'm all for sharing data, but I fully understand that some things are still kept secret. Yield numbers are one of those things.

I also understand that people are hesitant to put down any solid numbers, for in the next instance someone is going to use that to sell or buy some stuff and then they will blame the one giving the numbers if it doesn't match up.

Poyalo, are you sorting the boards because the refinery wants it or is it because you want to keep track? If everything is refined in one lot then you could fragment the boards and take a representative sample. It should be possible for you to send a few kilos to the lab that Niks mentioned. You could send another sample to a Russian lab to see if they come to a similar assay.

To take a representative sample is hard and an art in itself, but a lot is already described on the forum already.

Göran
 
g_axelsson said:
I totally get (I think... :wink: ) what Jon is saying. Experience and keeping track on what you buy and what the yield is will decide if you make money or not. Especially on larger lots. If you can undercut the competition when bidding on a lot because you know that you still make enough money you will get more throughput. The more you process the leaner margin you can live on.

If you don't know exactly what a lot will give in return you need larger margins and you will loose more contracts to competitors. So to build experience you might have to take some risks and now and then loose some money if you paid too much for a lot.

Oh...see, I thought he was saying build your business based upon your own returns, not something someone else tells you.

I can share the returns I've been told, they seem believable. But the reality is, those returns are only as good as the consistency of the guy sorting and the incoming material. And since that guy works for the person who told me the returns, not me...I'm not going to get the same result.

I'm not sure what Jon is able to forecast in terms of expected returns...I'm not sure how consistent his incoming material is. But from other guys, if they consistently get within 5 or 10% of expected, they are happy.

And think about that...10% is the same as winning a game of darts by hitting the board instead of the wall.
 
Yeah, that's another part of the picture.

Even using a ruler to measure something, different people will have different measurement errors, some random and some more systematical with an offset. So relying on others returns is only a guidance. Not only from the guy sorting the boards, but also from which refinery you use. Every plant will have different losses, and that will affect the return.

But to cite a wise man, GSP. He said that if he ever got back and set up another refinery, the first he would invest in was to set up an in-house fire assay. It takes the guesswork out of refining scrap.

Göran
 
Good points lads.

You simply can't afford to have assays completed on all your material. The variation is just too high so it needs to be done on a results basis. I've not disclosed refinery results all the way through and I've always been up front about the reasons behind not doing so.

Frankly I would suggest that having spent a number of 500 euro assays, the likelihood of freely sharing information would decrease significantly Nik, but that given you can work on a margin for 5-10% if you buy consistent to the results you have obtained yourself.

You are always going to get variations- both up and down. All you can predict is the range but the range needs to be solid.
 
Jon, if I were to ask you what's the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, what would you answer me? You can't give me one number - a precise answer in decimal numeral system, you can however give me close enough approximation for all practical purposes...

All of what you (all, above) are saying is totally true, and you are right to emphasize it, PCBs are very hard to sample, the variance in values is incredible, you should completely trust only your own numbers, etc...
But maybe it's just because you guys have already forgotten how it feels to be a newbie, when you don't know first thing about anything, not even the full scope of what you don't know yet - you are glad to take any information you can get at that point... Of course the right thing to do is to compare, verify and always leave a little room for doubt, like with any theoretical information, especially on internet...

But this (very welcome) cautious approach to yield data often overshadows any real information that could be given on the subject...

He was asking for:
poyalo said:
the approximate
Yield...
Should he argue with his refinery based on any numbers we could give him? NO!
Should he build a business plan based on numbers we give him? NO!
But can we give him enough information that he either has a peace of mind or feels the need to dig deeper (assays, witnessing, whatever)? YES!

C'mon, no mainstream small-socket motherboard (unless depopulated or tampered with) would contain less than 40 Au PPM, if that is what he would be getting, he should definitely look in to it more... Same as no mainstream small-socket motherboard would contain 200 Au PPM, he should not base any hopes on number that high...
Myself, so far from information I have gathered from multiple sources, I feel the numbers 70-140 Au PPM is believable enough for me, I do accentuate again - it is only theoretical and in no means a good representation of boards on average (meaning I do not think 140 PPM is as common as 70 PPM, I have no idea where in this array the median values of average boards in circulation are)
So that is the best answer I am able to give at this moment to the original question asked. And I believe it is the very purpose of this forum for us to share this knowledge.

But to hide behind "I can't give you a precise answer so I will give you no information at all", behind "It's too complicated, too diverse, you wouldn't be able to apply any numbers we give you", or other pretenses... Well that just goes in the opposite direction of the spirit of "Gold refiners helping one another", doesn't it?... The part where some members feel the need to simultaneously mention that they do indeed posses this this very valuable knowledge, but have no intention to share such high mysteries, and therefore anything that is shared is
not reliable.
, and thus should be disregarded, well attitude like that just annoys me :/...
mostly because it falls in the "have to say something" not the "have something to say" category ;)
 
niks neims said:
Jon, if I were to ask you what's the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, what would you answer me? You can't give me one number - a precise answer in decimal numeral system, you can however give me close enough approximation for all practical purposes...

All of what you (all, above) are saying is totally true, and you are right to emphasize it, PCBs are very hard to sample, the variance in values is incredible, you should completely trust only your own numbers, etc...
But maybe it's just because you guys have already forgotten how it feels to be a newbie, (This is a bit harsh and uncalled for Nik. It's really not productive.)when you don't know first thing about anything, not even the full scope of what you don't know yet - you are glad to take any information you can get at that point... Of course the right thing to do is to compare, verify and always leave a little room for doubt, like with any theoretical information, especially on internet...

But this (very welcome) cautious approach to yield data often overshadows any real information that could be given on the subject...

He was asking for:
poyalo said:
the approximate
Yield...
Should he argue with his refinery based on any numbers we could give him? NO!
Should he build a business plan based on numbers we give him? NO!
But can we give him enough information that he either has a peace of mind or feels the need to dig deeper (assays, witnessing, whatever)? YES!

C'mon, no mainstream small-socket motherboard (unless depopulated or tampered with) would contain less than 40 Au PPM, (this is actually incorrect) if that is what he would be getting, he should definitely look in to it more... Same as no mainstream small-socket motherboard would contain 200 Au PPM, he should not base any hopes on number that high... (and so he shouldn't because that would be financial suicide)
Myself, so far from information I have gathered from multiple sources, I feel the numbers 70-140 Au PPM is believable enough for me, I do accentuate again - it is only theoretical and in no means a good representation of boards on average (meaning I do not think 140 PPM is as common as 70 PPM, I have no idea where in this array the median values of average boards in circulation are)
So that is the best answer I am able to give at this moment to the original question asked. And I believe it is the very purpose of this forum for us to share this knowledge.

But to hide behind "I can't give you a precise answer so I will give you no information at all", behind "It's too complicated, too diverse, you wouldn't be able to apply any numbers we give you", or other pretenses... Well that just goes in the opposite direction of the spirit of "Gold refiners helping one another", doesn't it?...

Gold refiners helping each other does happen. There's an awful lot of information (and hard data) shared on here a fair amount of which does come from my direction. To argue that a reticence to distribute what amounts to commercial data flies in the face of the spirit of gold refiners helping one another doesn't sit very well. You are discussing a business here- not hobby refining and the rules don't remain the same. Nobody is entitled to anything. I wasn't, Lou wasn't and a few others on here who do this for a living weren't either.

The part where some members feel the need to simultaneously mention that they do indeed posses this this very valuable knowledge, but have no intention to share such high mysteries, and therefore anything that is shared is
not reliable.
, and thus should be disregarded, well attitude like that just annoys me :/...
mostly because it falls in the "have to say something" not the "have something to say" category ;)

All points in colour above.

Right time to take the gloves off. For the avoidance of doubt - read and inwardly digest.

You can choose to approach your business either from the perspective of reality or fantasy.

It's a given that people all the way through the chain are in it to make money. If someone is sitting in that chain worrying about how much someone else makes then the chain breaks apart.

I cannot make any more money from my product than I can make by sending to a refinery. That's proven fact. They can recover all the metals to the best efficiency. Yes they nick the Tin, yes they nick the Tantalum, yes they nick a whole host of other metals but can I get them? No I can't so I don't even worry about it because I cannot change it and worrying about things I cannot change is a waste of time.

The amount of product I send into the refinery is enough for decent terms but in the scheme of things unless you are sending in north of 50 tonnes per month don't even bother trying to have special treatment from them because you don't even register on their "give a fig" meter.

You seem to be constantly worried about where your potentially additional 500 euros per tonne is coming from. Instead of worrying about that on your 1.5 tonnes per month work on sending in 3 tonnes or 5 tonnes or 10 tonnes. Then that 500 euros from your 1.5 tonnes is more than accounted for. Again - unless you are doing 50 tonnes per month they are not even going to discuss it.

For what it's worth here's my advice to you right between the eyes. Your volumes are not enough for a refinery so change that. Until they are- trade your board and re-use the money to trade more. Whilst you're trying to find that extra margin that you believe you're entitled to you could have traded your gear twice again. Money makes money. Within a period of time the money you have is enough to buy a mass of material that's enough for a load. Then you've got the additional headache of your material being out for a period of time before you're paid for it. Weeks if not months. You need to work out how to fund that when it arrives in your face.

At all times deal straight. I cannot emphasise that enough. When people trust you- doors open. You get known either as a straight trader or a whinger I would recommend that you be the former because people like dealing with straight traders. Dealing with whingers is a nightmare, and there's very little love for doing another deal with one. So sometimes you take a small hit, dust yourself off, learn from it and move on the the next deal. As my friend Dean would say- this is a cost of doing business.

If you go to a place where they pay a percentage up front then the uplift later you will "lose" more of your money because that's the name of the game. You cannot argue with them about your prices because they just solved your cashflow problem thereby allowing you to rinse, repeat and carry on the process.

What I am saying here applies to all business not just refining. We all start on the ground in any industry and there's a ladder in front of you. You do what you need to do in order to climb the rungs of that ladder, without complaining about your place in the chain or that other people are benefiting from your work. You climb onto the first rung by developing true trusted relationships with both your suppliers and downstream partners. Not based upon complaining or an entitlement to more profits. When you get there you suddenly get access to another tier of benefit. Maybe a supplier offers you terms instead of cash up front, or maybe a downstream partner likes your volumes and offers you better terms.

And so it goes on. With every rung of the ladder the benefits increase but you need to make that rise happen. People start knocking on your door instead of having to reach out all the time. Your reputation increases and you enter an upward spiral.

Until you plant that ladder and decide that you're willing to grit your teeth, accept the pain that comes with the journey, and climb it nothing will change.

Some will read what I have written here as patronising. That would their loss because this one post contains the blunt hard truths that I wish someone had given me 25 years ago when I started out. It's freely given and I hope that you and others can benefit from it.
 
That's actually pretty decent post and a great advice, I'll edit this post in to a proper answer later on, now I'm on my phone & can't type properly;)
 
While I am no where near the scale Jon is, he is dead on. One of my main sources, while not escrap, will call me occasionally needing to turn over material so he can purchase more profitable (for him) material. I will go out of my way to make it happen from my end because I know he will make it up to me later, if not right then (most often the case is right then). I sell a small amount (1/2toz to over 1toz) to a buyer that normally pays less on small amounts, but over time he has learned that I will be back, and the amount will exceed his normal minimum requirements, and meets his quality requirements, earning me a rate that is normally reserved for larger sellers. This in turn allows me to pay more for material than many of the local "we buy gold" places do at times, and still allow me to access some materials that most won't even buy such as gold filled, pins and occasionally fingers etc. Most of all I enjoy working with these people, and we all make a necessary profit to keep it all working.

I could go on but that should give an idea of why I think the way I do about some things.
 
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