Flaming posted snobbery

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Harold_V

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stevem4323 said:
the word fool is a bit harsh if you are learning anything new then you are not a fool
The word is NOT harsh. I meant it to the letter.. and picked my words carefully. The point I've tried to make is the person SHOULD be learning something, not asking questions that would not be asked had they learned what they were told to learn. Why is it a reader can't read text in a book, but, instead, make demands of others to restate that which has been stated time and again, and is already at their disposal?

Keep in mind, I do not suffer fools gladly. Pick your comments carefully.

Readers are constantly admonished to read Hoke's book, yet some find that a bit of an inconvenience. If they are inconvenienced by having to lift a finger to better themselves, that, in and of itself, is evidence enough for me that they are fools. Only a fool ignores good and careful guidance---even when the words he/she hears are not what they hope to hear. If these individuals have/had enough wisdom to make decisions, they wouldn't be here asking of others.

If you wish to learn from those of us who have knowledge, you're simply going to have to do it our way. Otherwise, there will be no lessons taught. None of us have enough time on our hands to coddle those who have an entitlement attitude and expect others to do the heavy lifting for them.

I'm not interested in any further discussion in this matter. If you don't heed my cautions to do as you're told, in particular, in reading Hoke's book until it makes sense to you, this I promise you; you will not have a pleasant stay on this forum.

Harold
 

4metals

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I'd like to answer this from the perspective of one who is asked a lot of questions, more in PM than on the forum but questions none the less. I come to this profession as a chemist but don't hold that against me. I did not have the good fortune of reading Hoke for many years after I was refining on a large scale. The fact that this forum embraces her teachings is refreshing, and if you take the time to read the book you will have the ability to ask questions from a position of knowledge rather than from a position of oblivion. Harold has helped many members learn this trade, he learned from the ground up, without a forum and I applaud his accomplishment. I also understand his frustration when people come here expecting answers without doing the work. Harold may call these people fools, honestly in person I wouldn't be expressing it that nice!

But I'm not posting this to discuss the merits of reading Hoke, I would like to post an observation I've made from my tenure here as a member and now as a moderator. The members who do their refining successfully and profitably have done the hard work, they have read through the threads and sorted out the small talk and benefited from numerous posts and emerged as decent technicians. I have seen many come and ask questions rather than do the work, they come and they go but the ones that stay have done the work and, for most, it has paid off. I know that when a member posts an intelligent question which comes from obvious experience, his or her question will be answered and that member will not be told to go read the book. But the people who answer the questions get tired, how many times can a person be asked the same questions before getting "burnt out"?

I think the amazing fact that a good number of our members came here knowing little of the art of refining and can now talk intelligently on the subject, and it is all because they did the work. So we know that this forum is a place where anyone can come and receive a FREE education which, to my knowledge, is not available anywhere else. You wouldn't walk into a college and a day later go ask for your diploma, so you cannot expect to come here and expect to have your hand held. Do the work and it will pay off! And there are members who participate on this forum every day who can verify this. Maybe they should weigh in.
 

Claudie

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4metals said:
I'd like to answer this from the perspective of one who is asked a lot of questions, more in PM than on the forum but questions none the less. I come to this profession as a chemist but don't hold that against me. I did not have the good fortune of reading Hoke for many years after I was refining on a large scale. The fact that this forum embraces her teachings is refreshing, and if you take the time to read the book you will have the ability to ask questions from a position of knowledge rather than from a position of oblivion. Harold has helped many members learn this trade, he learned from the ground up, without a forum and I applaud his accomplishment. I also understand his frustration when people come here expecting answers without doing the work. Harold may call these people fools, honestly in person I wouldn't be expressing it that nice!

But I'm not posting this to discuss the merits of reading Hoke, I would like to post an observation I've made from my tenure here as a member and now as a moderator. The members who do their refining successfully and profitably have done the hard work, they have read through the threads and sorted out the small talk and benefited from numerous posts and emerged as decent technicians. I have seen many come and ask questions rather than do the work, they come and they go but the ones that stay have done the work and, for most, it has paid off. I know that when a member posts an intelligent question which comes from obvious experience, his or her question will be answered and that member will not be told to go read the book. But the people who answer the questions get tired, how many times can a person be asked the same questions before getting "burnt out"?

I think the amazing fact that a good number of our members came here knowing little of the art of refining and can now talk intelligently on the subject, and it is all because they did the work. So we know that this forum is a place where anyone can come and receive a FREE education which, to my knowledge, is not available anywhere else. You wouldn't walk into a college and a day later go ask for your diploma, so you cannot expect to come here and expect to have your hand held. Do the work and it will pay off! And there are members who participate on this forum every day who can verify this. Maybe they should weigh in.

Very good post. I think society today puts people in the mind set not to learn on their own, not to think for themselves. Everything around today has so many safety features that you couldn't get hurt if you tried. That is not true with refining metals, people need to think, they need to learn, so when they have a problem they can most likely think their way through it. There are many people out there spreading the wrong information too, I was on youtube today (I don't go there to learn but was linked there by a post I was reading) and I watched a video of a guy teaching others his version of the AP method. He was washing solutions down the drain, working on his kitchen counter top while telling people it is probably safe. I know my way around the internet pretty well and I have not seen any place out there like this forum. There are some real professionals here that have a lot to teach. If someone is willing to learn, the knowledge is here and the people here are willing to teach it, all for free. I am glad I found this site, I have learned so much here. I am by no means an expert at refining, but I have learned a lot. As much as I do know, I still wouldn't feel comfortable making youtube videos claiming to know what I was doing and trying to teach others, but I am pretty confident that I could do a better job than a lot of people out there that are making videos. I think the moderators here deserve to be respected, I have seen new people come demanding answers like the forum owes them something. This forum owes no one anything. Come, be polite, read a little bit before asking questions. If people would study the forum and watch some of the videos made by members here, there would not be as many questions, but how to get a people from a society that teaches them not to think, to think, may be a never ending problem.
 

Palladium

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Where it not for the knowledge of others, i would be ignorant! I don't know if anybody has ever quoted that, but it sure sounds good to me. I learned everything i know about refining from this forum and the experience and knowledge of others. I learned to refine not by physically watching others, but by listening. I never really read Hoke because i already knew her lessons from doing my research here. I really never ask a lot of questions pertaining to refining. I have read and reread almost every thread posted here at one time or another until my head hurts. True i still made mistakes, but those are your mistakes to be made. That's how we learn. Even with all that knowledge you still need experience to teach you what to do with it. Read,read, and read! Even if you do not understand what you are reading you will at a later date and then you will look back and see how important to you that then insignificant piece of information seemed. This forum is the best thing since sliced bread.
 

solar_plasma

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I agree completely!

I would like to add one thought of mine. In the short time I've been here, I have learned much about, what I do not know and what I have to learn. For example: Without this forum I would have figured out, how to RECOVER by some processes some kind of materials - indeed I had. With this forum I know, I have learned to avoid some mistakes and to avoid some losses, BUT much better I will be able to learn how to REFINE. To this point I know, there is not one only question, that not had been asked and answered before. There are a lot of discussions here, that make me curious on some side aspects, that not have that much with refining to do. Then I ask, and you know I ask a lot, but you don't know, that every second question I wrote, wasn't sendt, because while I formulated the question, I found a way to answer it by myself.

So, I agree, recovering and refining can be learned in this place without asking one question. It is in fact all there. And when we feel, we get lost in all the information, or when we don't got a clue, where to start, we have got help every single time! And I just want to say Thank You for that!
 

kkmonte

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I understand what you guys mean, however I do sometimes see the other side of it also. Everyone was a newb at one point, some newb's read and understand hoke alot better then others, others i'm sure never even read hoke. I think it's entirely possible to read this forum regularly, buy laser steve's dvd's, etc. and probably learn 90%+ of what is in hoke. Even though i'll probably get some grief, I think it's entirely possible to be able to refine either not having read all of hoke or if your comprehension isn't that good, then reading it but not understanding it.

I'm also sure you veterans do get sick of the "Please help I have learned how to extract the gold, I'm broke and I need the money, as soon as possible! I want to be expelled!" posts, however I think when someone like myself (I would consider myself level 1 support for refining) becomes part of the forum, we should do our "part" to answer the easier "level 1" type questions (unable to drop gold with SMB, too much chlorine, how can i tell if i have too much chlorine, etc). Only after all the level 1 support people are stumped should it get escalated to level 2 or level 3. :)

That way Butcher, Steve, Harold, etc. don't have to answer the same boring easy questions they have been answering for the past 3-5 years.
 

JHS

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When i was young
i knew everything
six decades later
i know that i know
very little
same as when i
first came here
john
 

butcher

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I joined this forum to learn, I do not ask questions to learn, as the information is already available, I have been here for many years and still have not finished learning all there is here to learn on this forum, Hokes book is only a little of what I have read or studied since I have joined, and after studying Hokes and getting a fair grasp of the message she teaches, I understand its importance to anyone who wishes to learn to recover and refine, in learning any skill an understanding of the basic principles is key to success, and the Hokes book is the book to learn these basics, yes you can also learn them from the forum but you would have to read thousands of more pages of posts on the forum, and the forum will not put it all together for you as well as this book does.

For me this is a hobby, I am by no means a professional, even though I have been here several years, I too am a beginner, I am just like the beginners who come here I am still learning, but I am not new, so I have found out much of what I do not know, until we find out we do not know, we cannot begin to learn, I have made a lot of mistakes, many more than the new members, many of the answers I give is not only what I have studied, but experience from a whole lot of mistakes I have made, I guess I am lucky as I realize if I wish to learn a skill, that it takes a lot of hard work and study (and learning from mistakes), and I am willing to do what it takes to gain that skill I am after.

New members who come here are not that lucky, they come here after reading or watching a video that makes this skill seem like it is some simple process, and any one can do it, they do not understand that this is a skill very few people will learn, some will not do what they have too to get the understanding they need, many will give up, others lose interest once they find out it is not as easy as they thought, those who think they will become rich find out they will not....

Very few will stick it out and learn to recover and refine, those who have been here on the forum who have stuck it out to learn are a rare breed and these are the ones who are learning this skill, I cannot name them all, but they are the teachers on this forum (and I am not speaking of our professional refiners here on the forum who have taught us all and shared their valuable skill and knowledge with us members who without their valuable guidance, and willingness to share their hard won knowledge, we would have never been able to learn this art without them sharing the secrets hidden from man, since man first found gold), I am talking about the members here who help others with what they have learned, some have been here many years, and some have been here a for very short time, ask most any of then and they will tell you the same thing, there is a lot to learn, and it will take a lot of hard work to gain this skill.

This forum is a school where one can learn the skill and art of recovery and refining, where students become teachers of others sharing what they learn, and trying to guide others in the right direction so that they can learn, members helping others.

One of the difficult tasks of helping others here on the forum is helping our new members, they may think they already know it all and just need a simple process to follow to get gold, or believe there really is not much to this recovery and refining thing not understanding the complexity involved, then there are those in a hurry to get rich and really have no interest in learning what it takes, most begin by getting themselves in a big dangerous mess, and it can be a lot of work for members of this forum to help get them out of this mess and get them to a state of mind where they can actually begin to learn the skill and art of recovery and refining of precious metals.

Many will join this forum, few will have what it takes to stick with it and learn this skill, I will try to help those who wish to get started, by trying to get them to understand what it takes to begin to learn, but I cannot teach them, if they will not study or work hard then that is their loss, not mine. No one can learn for another man, all one can do is guide him if he is on the wrong road, but which road he chooses is up to him.

Hokes book will help a new member in several ways, they can begin to learn the language, and with this book they can learn most of the basics needed as well as the very advanced methods in this art, it gets a member acquainted with how the metals act in acids, and can teach them how to identify metals in acids, Hokes book is only a small portion of the learning process, but an invaluable tool for any one wanting to get an understanding.

Many will come here to learn this art and skill few will be able to, if a member who can read and refuses to read this simple book Hokes and thinks that I can teach him well he is wrong, even if I tried I could not, because to learn he must be the one with enough desire to do the work, no matter how hard I tried, or how hard I worked, I would never be able to put the knowledge in his head, Knowing I cannot make someone know, I will not try, or waste my time, but what I will do is try to help our new member understand, what he needs to do if he truly wishes to learn, and I will try to get him on the right road to learning, where he goes from there is up to him, we spend an awful lot of time helping members who only stick around for a short time, answering many of the same old questions, and trying to help them, we never know which ones are the lucky few who will begin to learn the skill and art, but when we see members who refuse to study, or wish to argue we know right off these will never have what it takes.

If you are not interested enough to learn to recover and refine the most valuable metals in the world , and will be willing to read one simple but very interesting book, you do not have what it takes, and are wasting our time, I will try to help you see the reason in this, but I will not waste my time past that point, this skill I am trying to learn is too complicated, there is too much to it, it takes a lot of my time to learn, and I do wish to learn it, I will try to help others begin to learn, but I cannot make them, or learn it for them, they have to do the work.

Harold has always been spot on about Hokes book, and He has always been spot on about those who refused to lift a hand to study.
 

Harold_V

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kkmonte said:
I understand what you guys mean, however I do sometimes see the other side of it also. Everyone was a newb at one point, some newb's read and understand hoke alot better then others, others i'm sure never even read hoke. I think it's entirely possible to read this forum regularly, buy laser steve's dvd's, etc. and probably learn 90%+ of what is in hoke. Even though i'll probably get some grief, I think it's entirely possible to be able to refine either not having read all of hoke or if your comprehension isn't that good, then reading it but not understanding it.
Yes---I agree. I think some can gain the knowledge without reading Hoke. One of the ways they try to do that is by asking stupid questions, which are stupid because they refuse to take the time to learn the basics. That's what we keep getting here, time and again. It's as simple as this. If you can't grasp what Hoke teaches, what makes you think you can learn it by other means? She wrote in such a manner that a fool can learn (I'm living proof), so what magical thing do you suppose would come to the fore by ignoring what she has tried to express in layman terms? You don't understand what she teaches? Read it again, and this time try doing the exercises she recommends. Do them exactly as she suggests, with your book in one hand and the chemicals in the other. Do it a line at a time. If you can't do them, what makes you think you can learn to refine?

If a reader is stymied by her book, he most likely will be stymied by other presentations as well. No shame in that---precious few of us are fully gifted with the ability to accomplish all tasks---even those we hold dear. I'm a perfect example.

I love music. I've spent my entire life listening---starting as a young lad with the big band sounds, pop music of the late 40's and early 50's, then rock and roll of the mid 50's, ending when the Beatles became popular. Along the way, late 50's, I started listening to jazz. I was also exposed to classical music, and came to enjoy the baroque, as well as the music of the very early years (Praetorius, for example). Having said that, I have tried, in vain, to play music. I can't do it. The best I can do is operate the stereo, which I do as well as any. I have to be content with listening to the talent and skill of others---I am unable to walk in their shoes.

If a reader hopes to learn to refine, the basics must be learned. That's what you get from Hoke's book. If that defies your understanding, you would be best served to find a different hobby. You'll struggle endlessly, and most likely remain confused with the simplest of operations in the refinery.

The real problem, however, isn't that some readers don't understand well. What the real problem is, and it's been proven to more than my satisfaction, is that many of the readers tend to have no pride in themselves--and are content to live off the sweat and toil of others. They are the ones who demand instant gratification---answers to the most mundane of questions, with little to no effort expended in attempting to learn the basics. They want to be spoon fed----and that's simply not going to happen on this board. They most likely aren't unable to learn---they are unwilling to learn, and, for them, I have no sympathy. Fact is, they disgust me.

If a reader is unwilling to read Hoke until it is understood, it is my opinion that they should not be on this forum. The only exception to that, in my estimation, is if they already have the basic understanding of refining, and can converse with those who refine. The reason I say that is because in doing so, we are all on a common page----statements made by one are understood by the masses--because we all think parallel to one another.

Were it such that in following Hoke's teachings I would have failed as a refiner, I might see things differently--but I didn't fail. If it worked for me, there's little reason why it won't work for others----assuming they're as willing to learn, as I was.

Read Hoke. Read Hoke again. Read Hoke until what she teaches makes sense to you. If you choose to not do so, please do not take offense when you are treated poorly on this forum. While I can't speak for others, I am no longer willing to coddle readers. All that has done in the past is create more readers to coddle. I'm burned out from doing so, one of the reasons I don't frequent this board regularly, as I once did. The deadbeats ---the "free lunch" crowd ----are ruining it for everyone.

Harold
 

srlaulis

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My fourteen year old nephew, whom is in the 8th grade, was easily able to read, comprehend and construct a book report on Refining Precious Metal Wastes. Her book is very easy to comprehend. If one cannot comprehend that book, then he or she does NOT have any business refining precious metals as well as using the chemicals and equipment required to do so. That's a fact Jack!
8)
 

solar_plasma

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I believe there are very few people here, who didn't need to read Hoke, - most of them has learned it professional, specialized chemists, hydrometallurgists and specialized chemical engineers. To all the other may Hoke be more or less simple reading, depending on there chemical, physical and technical knowledge, but it is not the chemistry in it alone, that makes it so foundamental important. It is to learn a trade. I have learned to teach several subjects, but I am not able to teach french. If I learned french language, it wouldn't be that hard, since I know latin, then I could easily adapt my didactical knowledge to give french lessons, - I would have an easy entry. But I would first have to learn the basics of french language - systematically. Hoke is a system of learning, a guideline (the only one that is free and cognitively easy accessable), - the forum is more like the school library, the theory and a source of others experiences. The forum members are like students, teachers and professors, - social learning, socializing and motivation. The practice is where we improve and consolidate the learning stuff, where we assimilate and construct personal knowledge. Those are four legs of a table. Take one away and it will miss its stability.
 

gold4mike

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When I came to the forum four years ago I was a complete newb. I didn't want to break protocol, having never been on a forum before, so I read pretty much every post on the forum. The result of all of that reading is the fact that I've had to ask very few questions in these four years.

When I do, you can be assured that I have already tried to find the answer on my own first. Occasionally there will be something I vaguely remember reading and I'll search until I find it. It would be easier to simply ask and let someone else do the research for me.

Having searched for refining knowledge before I found this forum I feel that every tidbit of information I get here is a gift. The original "givers" here could have sold this information for a handsome profit but have, instead, chosen to "give" it to me for free. I don't take such giving lightly. Similarly, I know I'll get gifts from my children on Father's Day. I don't go out and ask them for these gifts - that would be inappropriate and take some of the joy of giving from them. I feel the same way about those who come here and expect us to give them these gifts with little or no appreciation on their part.

It has become more cumbersome as the forum has grown and become somewhat unwieldy over time so I understand that it is harder for a newbie to read every post. There are many more posts to comb through to get to "the meat". Much of this is because of those who come here seeking our gifts.

I'm glad we have some newer members who are willing to field some of the newbie questions. Some are valid questions and there are many posted solutions to each problem that need some sorting out. For me, some of the shine has gone off our "Gold Nugget" here.

I'm no expert, but I am able to do what I need to do, solely because this forum exists.
 

AUJack

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I'm new. One thing I'll confess..I haven't read this entire thread. I don't need to. It started as a complaint. This field of expertise will either make you money or get you killed. I get the sentiment of the admins and seasoned members. Take it serious or leave. No one on a friendly message board wants death on their hands. Why expect this to be a light atmosphere. This isn't a mine craft gaming site. Its serious.
 

malfeces

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Oct 2, 2012
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Maine
SO here I am, years later, and I feel I need to address my opening comment. At this point in the game, I have been able to recover several ounces of gold safely and effectively thanks in most part to this forum and to some YouTube videos by members of this forum. Knowing what I know now, I can see why so many members respond to questions the way they do. There is legitimate reason for concern and if these comments rub a noob the wrong way and discourages them from continuing the art and science of pm recovery, then its probably a good thing. This stuff can be very .....very dangerous, and the allure of gold is very strong and can cause people to rush in, make mistakes, or worse, get hurt. While some comments may seem harsh, that, I feel, is most often out of genuine concern for the posters safety, and out of respect and reverence towards the chemicals, processes, and scientists whom have basically done all the hard work for us years ago like Hoke whos book, though about 100 years old, still applies to all we do today.

So if you are new, and you feel like someone just jumped down your throat for asking a question or posting a comment about what you did, please do not get offended. You can not derive tone from text. Instead, try to reread the response as though your mother or father were saying to you. I have been doing this for four years and know relatively so very little about the science and methods. You can't come here and expect hundreds of years of information to be presented to you in a couple paragraphs with a big bow on it. I have spent countless hours here and am still learning every damn day! Its mind boggling!

So new guys, the answers to your question are here already. Just as you would not like your child in the back seat asking "are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?", so too do the senior members of this forum feel a little put off when instant results are expected without doing any research first. Yeah, sometimes searches are hard here as a simple search will bring up every thread that mentions those words, and it may not answer your question, but believe that it will answer a question that you have not asked yet and most likely will.

Best of luck to you all, and special thanks to LazerSteve, and Geo
 

FrugalRefiner

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I'm reminded of a quote, often attributed to Mark Twain:
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years.
Welcome back malfeces. I've seen from some of your other recent posts that you have, indeed, been studying hard.

Dave
 

ChexMix

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I,m new to this forum,but not to this particular rant,I,ve seen it on other forums too. I,d like to give an example of how much information is available here if you only take the time to look for it. The terminology used here can indeed be confusing,especially when using acronyms like SMB,AP,AR,etc.But,there,s a whole thread on this forum,easily found,that defines and clarifies what these and many other such terms mean. I found it,no sweat, and learned a great deal at no cost other than a bit of time to read. Just an example of what,s available. Take the time to study these threads and subjects,you,ll learn lots more than if you were spoon fed the info with no effort on your part. Thanks to all who have contributed to the bank of knowledge.
 

swaminair

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Aug 3, 2022
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India
Me too a learner so silent on reading ,but I run across the forum for materials for refining.Too hard to procure.Always ending up with scammers around,availability of raw materials is the Hwangho(-the sorrow of china -read the term in history though not in my country) just a refresh to forum members.
This forum is a cradle for all babies noobs,so experts pat at.
 
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