General assistance

[soutex]

Hi all

This is my first post and I'm in need of some advice. Like all noobs, I've fluffed it up a little.

1st experiment

My first experiment involved a mistake (don't they all?) I watched far too many videos, each using different processes, as part of my initial research. I watched about electrolysis, AR, AP, Vinegar + Salt trying to figure out the best process for a beginner and confused myself half way through the process of which one I was actually doing. I used vinegar and Hydrogen Peroxide and realized several hours later that I'd done it wrong - I should have been using Vinegar and salt. I immediately added salt, not even thinking about the consequences of mixing salt and Hydrogen Peroxide (thankfully there weren't any) without first researching. I realize already I need to pay closer attention to what I'm doing, as when I get into the stronger chemicals that kind of mistake could cost me a heck of a lot more than just a boil over and loss of precious metal. Science doesn't always forgive a human error and will happily kill the unprepared and inexperienced for making a mistake. Thankfully, there was no volatility or dangerous fumes given off and I only worked a couple of RAM fingers - perhaps using such mild solutions was a saving grace. Anyway, that was several months ago. As there were no dangerous fumes emitted and no volatile reactions, I figured I'd just leave it alone and check on it / stir periodically to see what happened; It was an experiment, after all. I've filtered off the gold foils and now have a blueish liquid with what appears to be a small amount of white particles settled at the bottom. My gold foils appear to have broken up into pieces of varying sizes as well but not ruling out the stirring process could have caused this. I'm confident my gold foils are free of any base metal contaminants due to the time they have been sitting there and I'm not concerned about their "purity" as I will be refining them further once I get more gold removed from the base metals in other parts of the computer. I would like to know if my mistake means I have gold in the Vinegar + Hydrogen Peroxide + salt solution? I was also wondering what the white particles in my solution may be? They were filtered twice using coffee filters, so that says how fine they are. I denoxxed that solution earlier tonight as it was a mistake and I've got the solution in a flask until I've been advised by people who know what they're doing - should I process it further (and how) or should I discard in my stock pot?

Second question, is would it be beneficial to put the entire motherboard in a Pyrex dish with a solution to remove the solder mask and then transfer it to an AP solution for several weeks?

Thank you in advance for the advice.

 

[dlechl1]

Pretty sure the advice you are going to get is to put everything away, and pick up the Hoke book.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Pretty sure the advice you are going to get is to put everything away, and pick up the Hoke book.

That is good advice

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hi all

This is my first post and I'm in need of some advice. Like all noobs, I've fluffed it up a little.

1st experiment

My first experiment involved a mistake (don't they all?) I watched far too many videos, each using different processes, as part of my initial research. I watched about electrolysis, AR, AP, Vinegar + Salt trying to figure out the best process for a beginner and confused myself half way through the process of which one I was actually doing. I used vinegar and Hydrogen Peroxide and realized several hours later that I'd done it wrong - I should have been using Vinegar and salt. I immediately added salt, not even thinking about the consequences of mixing salt and Hydrogen Peroxide (thankfully there weren't any) without first researching. I realize already I need to pay closer attention to what I'm doing, as when I get into the stronger chemicals that kind of mistake could cost me a heck of a lot more than just a boil over and loss of precious metal. Science doesn't always forgive a human error and will happily kill the unprepared and inexperienced for making a mistake. Thankfully, there was no volatility or dangerous fumes given off and I only worked a couple of RAM fingers - perhaps using such mild solutions was a saving grace. Anyway, that was several months ago. As there were no dangerous fumes emitted and no volatile reactions, I figured I'd just leave it alone and check on it / stir periodically to see what happened; It was an experiment, after all. I've filtered off the gold foils and now have a blueish liquid with what appears to be a small amount of white particles settled at the bottom. My gold foils appear to have broken up into pieces of varying sizes as well but not ruling out the stirring process could have caused this. I'm confident my gold foils are free of any base metal contaminants due to the time they have been sitting there and I'm not concerned about their "purity" as I will be refining them further once I get more gold removed from the base metals in other parts of the computer. I would like to know if my mistake means I have gold in the Vinegar + Hydrogen Peroxide + salt solution? I was also wondering what the white particles in my solution may be? They were filtered twice using coffee filters, so that says how fine they are. I denoxxed that solution earlier tonight as it was a mistake and I've got the solution in a flask until I've been advised by people who know what they're doing - should I process it further (and how) or should I discard in my stock pot?

Second question, is would it be beneficial to put the entire motherboard in a Pyrex dish with a solution to remove the solder mask and then transfer it to an AP solution for several weeks?

Thank you in advance for the advice.

Follow the advice you were given by the first reply.

Vinegar and salt forms a weak HCl so it makes more sense to use actual HCl.

When that is said, do this in a place that has nothing that can rust, like nails and screws that hold it together, or better outside.
There will be fumes and they will find all rustable materials.

Dissolving the metals on whole boards is a waste of chemicals.
Cut off any Gold bearing fingers and such as close as possible.
When this is done there should not be much solder left.
Put this in a HCl bath just covering it and start bubbling air through it.
It will slowly turn green and you have an AP solution that will etch away all copper in there.
After days or weeks all old foils will be loos and you can flush them off with water spray.
Spray all fingers clean into a bucket/beaker.
When finished you can collect it all and dissolve it in any way you want.
Then precipitate with SMB or Copperas.
Voila you have your first gold powder.

 

[Martijn]

Welcome to the forum. The first advice is indeed one that you should think about.
Compare it to starting any other dangerous activity with possilbe life altering risks attached to it.
Don't stick your fingers into a working blender. It can possibly hurt. Read The F...(antastic) Manual.

Now you have a lot of reading to do and leave YouTube alone for now. Trust only the info given here on the forum, because it's checked for nonsense and consensus. Again, for now. You can't tell good from bad video's... yet.

Some links to get you started which I use to share a lot are in this post:

https://goldrefiningforum.com/posts/314378/
Martijn.

 

[soutex]

Thank you all for the replies. I appreciate you all taking the time to keep me right. I'm learning quite a bit from other people's threads too and encourage other people to keep the posts coming. The only stupid question is the one you never asked.

I have seen Hoke's book referenced in several places in this forum and consider it an essential investment for reference material. At the time I wrote the OP, I didn't know Hoke's book existed and when I started my first experiment I knew nothing of this forum.

I love Science and actually pretty decent when it comes to Physics, but Chemistry confuses the heck out of me and may become a deal breaker in the end. I (kind of) understand HCl + Cu becomes H + CuCl (don't understand how or why the transfer occurs but guessing it's to do with shells and electron count) but throw the numbers in the formula and that's where I really get confused, especially when the numbers are superscripted, subscripted, regular, before the letter or after it, etc, etc. When I went to high school many moons ago the Science class encompassed Chemistry, Physics and Biology but were not independently studied subjects. I never had a Chemistry teacher perse and always had a Physics teacher take the Science class for my 5 years in high school. As a result, I never really had someone who could explain Chemistry to me with any clarity. I was considered the best Science student for my entire school and at 14 years old I could explain the Physics of flight and space travel but found the "2" in H²O to be beyond my comprehension. It's somewhat unnerving to me to drop different things in a beaker and pour in chemicals that can potentially change my life and not be able to predict the expected result, which is why I'm keeping it small and doing what I've seen works relatively safely until I can learn the mechanics of it all.

As for the videos, I do try to stick with sreetips. I've seen many videos on YouTube from many sources and he is one of the few, if not the only one, who openly wears protective gear in his videos and stresses on the importance of safety with fume management. His experiments are also very controlled and predicts the presence of or no presence of gold then confirms his experiment is going correctly with Stannous Chloride. To me, that is the mark of a professional and someone worth watching and learning from. On the flip side, I also saw one video where the guy references sreetips as his learning source and then poured Hydrochloric Acid and Nitric Acid into a 5 gallon bucket on the ground with no gloves while wearing open toe sandals and no socks then finished the video with the reward of having gold. Unfortunately, his blatant disregard for personal safety didn't show the predictable surprise for others to learn from. I guess the important lesson from sreetips videos went over that person's head and is not someone I consider worth watching.

One lesson I have learned already in life is about playing (metaphorically) at my own level and knowledge and not someone else's. One has to know their own limitations. That's why I'm not overly concerned about how to refine the PMs yet and only working on base metals - I'm not ready for playing in the big league yet. I'm going to get a test tube rack and small rolls of different wire and conduct small tests. The simple stuff. I know already in Science you want a constant across the experiments and test one variable at a time, such as have small pieces of different wires in each test tube then pour in 10ml HCl into each of the test tubes to test what metals HCl reacts with and record the findings, or use the same wire in the test tubes and change the chemical. Once I have that base knowledge using different metals and different chemicals, I will try different levels of heat and record those findings. While I'm sure these experiments are well-documented in Hoke's book (and I will get a copy in the near future), I lack experience as well as knowledge and a book can only address one of those. I am also the type who learns from doing and don't really get much from reading. Unfortunately, good decisions are learned from bad experiences and the bad experiences in Science can potentially render you unable to learn anything again (death). I'm respectful I have to know my own limitations while trying to educate myself a little at a time, so I'm also considering "Chemistry for Dummies" before I lean heavily on Hoke's material and start playing with PMs. I'm trying to balance learning with getting the job done without putting myself in severe jeopardy in the process.

I have had positive experiences from using AP solution and an air bubbler and do have gold foils already in a plastic container and I have rendered my ICs legless ready for further processing. The end solutions have been kept in a sealed bucket already. I won't process the ICs or the foils until I am ready to go to the next level with this hobby. I still don't get the difference between Copper Chloride 1 and 2 or how they are produced, except one involves an air bubbler and the other doesn't. I'm not ready for Aqua Regia or ashing ICs yet but I will be in the future. One must learn how to walk before they can run without tripping and hurting themself.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Hoke's book doesn't go into depth on the chemistry, and really doesn't give any details on the "acquaintance experiments" she suggests. In fact, what she suggests is doing exactly what you propose. Put a tiny bit of copper in a test tube, add a bit of HCl, and observe the reaction. Try another with nitric. Try other acids, and combinations of acids with other metals. You will learn by doing.

You'll find links to her book in my signature line below. They are free to download. I hope they help.

Dave

 

[soutex]

Can you suggest a source where I can learn about the Chemistry? I know there is an orange fog emitted by AR and gold and that it is poisonous. I would like to get to the point where I can look at chemical symbols and assess the safety of an experiment before I even conduct it so there are no unexpected, yet predictable, surprises. Although Tin and HCl creates Stannous Chloride, for instance, would Stannous Sulfide, for instance, be explosive or otherwise dangerous to my family? Ideally, I want to know, or at least be able to predict, ahead of time.

As Hoke's book does not go into the details of the Chemistry would there be any benefit for this forum if I did conduct those experiments and publish my findings here?

 

[orvi]

Can you suggest a source where I can learn about the Chemistry? I know there is an orange fog emitted by AR and gold and that it is poisonous. I would like to get to the point where I can look at chemical symbols and assess the safety of an experiment before I even conduct it so there are no unexpected, yet predictable, surprises. Although Tin and HCl creates Stannous Chloride, for instance, would Stannous Sulfide, for instance, be explosive or otherwise dangerous to my family? Ideally, I want to know, or at least be able to predict, ahead of time.

As Hoke's book does not go into the details of the Chemistry would there be any benefit for this forum if I did conduct those experiments and publish my findings here?

Best for the overall outcome will be to know the process but also know the theory behind. You do not need to be a genius to refine metals. It was all done before, and no one of us, ordinary refiners would invent new reaction or completely different approach - in great probability.

Reactions in refining silver and gold are actually pretty simple, and there aren´t too many of them. With platinum group metals, they are simple too, but there is quite a bit of possibilities

Actually, you can skip the whole theory and go straight to "take a bit, put acid and observe" mode. But I will leave this as last resort. Understanding the chemistry and all the "why" things get you wisdom needed to overcome the problems which could arise along the way.

I am a PhD and teach the organic chemistry lab courses in university. We demand from all the students to check and know any chemical (properties, reactivity and safety) they will use and also any possible product or byproduct they will create in the process. Safety is the first priority. And chemistry is unforgiving. Always do what it should do. It will never make a mistake.

With experiments, it depends on what you are intended to do. If you just put the scrap to the test tube and add acid... We done this before I will advise to stick to the proven and always working protocols (for now), and when confident with results, step up and maybe to altering some step based on the knowledge you acquired

 

[orvi]

Learn about chemistry is very broad to adress shortly If these are just questions issuing the basics of inorganic chemistry, like nomenclature of basic compounds, redox reactions and understanding the electrochemical series of metals, you need to search for some textbook, because I only have ones in my native language
Also I can advise scholar videos with lectures about chemistry from reputable and well established institutions and universities like Oxford, Cambridge, MIT etc. As there were COVID times, lots of stuff is accessible online on YouTube. Just search what you want to learn, like "redox rections" on YouTube, and you will be amazed how much good stuff is there to be found

Also, search whole Tutorials section of this forum. There is plenty of good threads, informations and checked stuff which work.
Starting with this thread:

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/library-index-thread.22351/

 

[soutex]

Thank you

 

[heliman4141]

There is a LOT of safety skills to memorize in this science. If you have any doubts what so ever remembering any of them make a clipboard list to go thu for ea type of recovery and refining so you can go thru it like a pilot would do with his pre flight checklist. Its what i did & it saved me from any mistakes. Ill admit i do not have a photographic memory and i did not do it enough to have it burned forever in the mind like a full time job would eventually. Many of the complex solutions have names that are very similar visually so that can easily be confusing as well by accident. Anyway by doing this, looking up info needed at that moment was far easier & faster then always stopping and searching the web, plus i did not want to get my PC anywhere near acids either since i did not have a fume hood. Master safety skills before anything period this includes proper disposal of waste.

 

[GoIdman]

Can you suggest a source where I can learn about the Chemistry? I know there is an orange fog emitted by AR and gold and that it is poisonous. I would like to get to the point where I can look at chemical symbols and assess the safety of an experiment before I even conduct it so there are no unexpected, yet predictable, surprises. Although Tin and HCl creates Stannous Chloride, for instance, would Stannous Sulfide, for instance, be explosive or otherwise dangerous to my family? Ideally, I want to know, or at least be able to predict, ahead of time.

As Hoke's book does not go into the details of the Chemistry would there be any benefit for this forum if I did conduct those experiments and publish my findings here?

Imho, if you are new to recovery and refining, do as most of experienced refiners have done. Until you have considerable knowledge about processes, acids, reactions, waste disposal and so on, read as much as you can about the topics you will eventually practice, mean time gather and sort as much raw material as you can from RAM sticks to MLCC`s and processors and other valuable stuff you will use for recovery and refining.
This will help you in two major ways, first, you will learn the value of your materials how to get it, where to get it and for how much, and know how to optimize your time working with those materials (worth versus profit), and second, you will understand that chemicals are not a joke and they can kill you by the slightest mistake.
Sorry if it sounds to harsh, not my intend to scare you, but rather be safe than sorry.
Youtube is not the best source of information about this niche, but this forum covers it pretty well and you always have someone experienced who can help you out, if needed.
Remember, safety first!

Be safe,

Pete