Gold stuck in Amalgamite...what a bummer

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N

Nolan

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
10
I realize that this question has been answered in other topics, but I have a question concerning the nitric to absorb the amalgamite and drop the gold. First off, I don’t like handling flagged material. I heard they used industrial grade drain cleaner to make drugs, so to avoid that hassle; I went to a lumber yard and purchased lawn fertilizer, which is 20% total nitrogen, 12.2% ammoniacal nitrogen, 7.6% urea nitrogen, 5.7% other water soluble N, 0.5% water N soluble, soluble potash 3%, sulfur 15%, and 15% combined sulfur - whatever all of that means.

First off, I’ve been painting since October 1972, up until about 6 months ago when the illegal aliens started underbidding me, thus I’ve been perpetually unemployed. Painting chemistry is not foreign to me, but this heavy metal is a whole new world. So forgive me if I am a bit redundant with some of these questions. I have read in this forum until my 62 year old eyes precipitated H2O, so I had to read in duty cycles. In removing the nitrogen, I need some assistance in this area. I read on two different strings about sodium nitrate but I haven’t found (as yet) anything with sulfur nitrate. There were paragraphs from Steve, James, Glen, Oz…I can’t thank you fellows enough, even I haven’t met you 8) On one of these, a link to another site was given that mentioned a nitric acid formula. What I need to know is how to remove the sulfur from the nitrogen. I went to YouTube and saw the video about the copper hydrochloric with another container over the top of the first, pushing the gases thru the bottom of the first container, thru water, to make nitric acid, and using the same idea with hydrogen peroxide in a cylinder. I definitely need a little assistance :idea: I was reading some of your safety stuff about using a vent-a-hood and about someone who had their stuff in the yard. What a stunning good idea. I’ve been wanting to put an awning on my shed for four years…what a great excuse to do so :lol: Yep, my wife is pleased with this one  Whatever fertilizer we have left will go in the garden. Thanks guys for all your help, that you didn’t know you gave me

Great site :lol:
Nolan
 
What you purchased is a consumer targeted blend. It has a bunch of stuff in it you don't need. This may be very difficult and costly to separate. What you are looking for is nitrate of soda, or sodium nitrate. It should be listed as the only active ingredient. Hy-Yield is the brand I find locally but others on the forum have mentioned other brands. You may even be able to find better deals if you can find where the farmers or big lawn services buy in bulk.
 
until my 62 year old eyes precipitated H2O
Click to expand...
I think you mean percipitated... :mrgreen:
I went to YouTube and saw the video about the copper hydrochloric
Click to expand...
That was poormans AR.
I read on two different strings about sodium nitrate but I haven’t found (as yet)anything with sulfur nitrate
Click to expand...
I am confused....are you looking for sulfur nitrate,or sodium nitrate?
If you can't find what qst suggested,it may be labled nitre of soda.That is how the NaNo3 is labled that I purchase.
Heres the link to poormans AR,and cold nitric
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5825&p=50197&hilit=+cold+nitric#p50197

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=1330&p=11223&hilit=sulfate+and+nitric#p11223
Johnny
 
Palladium said:
That was to funny :p
A correction, to a miscorrection, to a correction.
Click to expand...
Sigh! Call me a nut---or a nit picker---or what ever----it's just that I feel that we should put our best foot forward in these matters. Like it or not, we are judged by that which we put in print. If we're to be taken seriously----we should speak as if we didn't fall off a turnip wagon (not implying anyone does).

There's a few words we use daily---words that should, by now, be well entrenched in the minds of our readers. I've commented on them previously---although certainly not all of them.

The word etc.----a contraction of two words et cetera. Frequently misspelled ect. How can that be?

Muriatic acid. M U R I A T I C. Not muratic.

Precipitate. Not percipitate. There is no percipitate.

There's more---lots more.

Harold (the picky old dude)
 
Hey, falling off a turnip truck hurts, I swore I would try not to do it again.

Kidding aside, this is one profession/hobby that it can be very important to be exacting in all we do. Anything but absolute clarity could cause someone to make a mistake by following inadvertently incorrect directions and that could cause injury or death.
 
Oz said:
Hey, falling off a turnip truck hurts, I swore I would try not to do it again.

Kidding aside, this is one profession/hobby that it can be very important to be exacting in all we do. Anything but absolute clarity could cause someone to make a mistake by following inadvertently incorrect directions and that could cause injury or death.
Click to expand...
Amen to that....Harold your correct on insisting on the correct spelling and use of terminology on this site, far to many people leap into refining without a basic understanding of the inherent dangers in virtually all the processes we use and i doubt if many of the new members or guests ever read the safety section,gold fever is alive and well lets hope all the readers of the forum remain so.
 
Yup that one hurt like hell.Especially considering it was me that not only made the mistake,but made it while trying to correct someone else's grammer/spelling.My wife has called me grammer man for almost 20 years,you'd think I would have caught myself.
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/percipitation.html
Johnny
 
Gentlemen of the court! My brother dug up my front yard, which has to do with fertilizer being bought in the first place; he lowered it, at its lowest, about 12 inches. So any error in purchase can always be dumped in the front yard. We had NO drainage when it rained. I called the co-op, and all that they had was a 13-13-13 fertilizer. There was some potash in the mixture, but I cannot remember the other items… because of the flu. When I first made this post (3/27/2010), I didn’t realize at the time, my brain had started shutting down. Due to a wonderful case of the flu, right now I’m running on half-life…so for any errors in grammar or chemistry…please correct.

I’m after producing nitric acid to absorb the amalgamite and drop the gold, for further refining. I like the poor man’s AP, since it is involving chemicals that I already purchase at the lumber yard. By dropping the impure gold, would I then run it in the AP copper dissolving acid, and then absorb it in the four-part hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) to one-part Clorox mixture? Mainly what I need to know is how to extract the nitric acid from the fertilizer. The links that were mentioned in this wonderful thread, I had been to previously. I had found one place I hadn’t been to, which was the Scribd site (thanks). I had visited this site previously, before I discovered this “gold” mine *snicker snicker*. In fact…I think that was how I found this site.

Ok, gentlemen of the court. Wow, I can’t believe all the replies of these 62 year old eyes leaking mild salt water; I hope this is accurate enough. This is absolutely a wonderful place to be. It took me 10 years in construction work to learn how to write a simple contract between the painter and the owner of the house… simplicity is a difficult concept...especially when you need to include everything you are doing on a project. I understand totally what Harold_V is saying. Painting is one thing, you can involve a few mistakes that can be corrected, because it is simply mechanical. One mistake mixing chemicals is likely to be a one-time mistake. I was cleaning my airless out and changing it from lacquer thinner to a synthetic enamel. Somewhere between the oxidized chemicals being sprayed out into the five gallon bucket, we had some spontaneous combustion…I got the bucket from the welder; I don’t know what was in there. My dad simply, cool-headedly, covered the bucket with a lid and smothered the fire (them WWII warriors), while I was still in panic mode. Safety cannot be taken for granted.

I appreciate being a part of this wonderful website. Thanks a bunch.
 
What metal is this amalgam with? Is lead or mercury involved here?
These details will help you get a good answer.
For homemade nitric or poor man aqua regia, you need a nitrate fertilizer, like sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate; other mixes of fertilizers are not good here, put them in the front yard.
You may find potassium nitrate as a stump remover.

Quote"(four-part hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid) to one-part Clorox mixture? Mainly what I need to know is how to extract the nitric acid from the fertilizer)"

Too much Clorox, small additions otherwise your just filling air with chlorine gas.

With sodium nitrate (NaNO3)(dissolved in water H2O), adding sulfuric acid (H2SO4), in correct amounts will make a nitric acid (HNO3) and a dissolved salt of sodium sulfate (Na2SO4) which can be removed from the nitric by freezing out salts and decanting them.

2NaNO3 + H2SO4 --> 2HNO3 + Na2SO4
In the above formula 169 gram of PURE sodium nitrate fertilizer, dissolved in minimum amount of boiling water, Then cooled, plus added to this is (98gram)(53 ml) of concentrated 98% sulfuric acid, (arrow means changes into equals)----> nitric acid plus sodium sulfate (lowering the temperature of this salt lowers its solubility in your acid allowing most of its removal, distilling the product would do a better job removal of this salt.
Steve and the pro's here made some very good posts on these processes, and this should be studied, and unlike your flaming 5 gallon bucket your dad snuffed out of paint fumes, some of these processes can become explosive, become deadly gas, or start fires, a good understanding of what you are doing is important. Your eyes can take a rest with a cup of coffee, but reading and understanding
is important to success and safety.
 
Apparently there is no lead or mercury in the amalgamite. I read a thread on this site, but I can’t remember where I saw it. It is a commercially sold item and you know how the EPA is. I will go back a hunt the thread down and find this again. I purchased (at a yard & garden) – Nitrate of Soda – Hi-Yield…4 pounds of it and can't wait to work with it.
By the way, I cannot stand having to learn those Mickey Mouse measurements, (metrics) you know – mm and ml…but I’ll just have to deal with it. They do make conversion charts on ebay :p When someone tells me they have a 6 liter engine, I have no idea what that means. Now 429 is something else.
You said “too much clorox, small additions otherwise you’re just filling air with chlorine gas.” How much Clorox to the muriatic acid? Do I need to reduce the 35% muriatic down to a purer form? I have a hot plate with a variable heat control that I added to it. Knowing that the boiling point on hydrochloric is higher than water, this would not present a problem...boiling point 110C or 227F. In these formulas, I see HCl...what is the difference in HCL – with a capital “L”? I keep calling it HCi...which is a LOT of difference :lol:
I will gather my paperwork together and start tomorrow with some of this homemade nitrate. I also would like to ask – does the nitric acid remove impurities in the plastic? In the YouTube production, they used a glass tube to stick into the hydrogen peroxide because he said that the plastic would put impurities...or would it make a difference in this small production?
This is absolutely more fun that the law allows :lol: Bless you a bunch :p
Nolan
 
No one was less familiar with the metric system of measure than I when I started refining. Surprisingly, it becomes second nature in short order.

Most plastics do not get along well with nitric. It's isn't contamination that's the problem---it's the failure of the plastic. Use stainless steel (300 series, non-magnetic) when dealing with nitric, or lab ware (borosilicate glass). Stainless serves perfectly well for storing nitric, but is not to be considered when processing, for fear of the solutions reacting with the metal.

Harold
 
HCl Hydrochloric acid with small L some people make mistake when typing it (I may sometimes but try not to).
HCl can also mean hydrogen chloride (gas).
When HCl (hydrogen chloride) gas is bubbled into water it makes HCL acid (hydrochloric acid).

Your ratio of HCl to Clorox was about right,
say we use 3/4 cup HCl then we would add small amounts of bleach, just enough to create chlorine gas in solution to oxidize and dissolve metals with the chlorine gas bubbles, when this reaction slowed or stopped we would add more bleach, when we got finished (all metal dissolved) we may have used 1/4 cup bleach, these are small additions that add up to the volume of bleach, pouring the whole amount in at beginning may just give us a cloud of chlorine gas, and barely attacking our metal, others may have a different Idea, but that’s how I see it.

Hydrochloric acid and heat or boiling, yes mostly water will boil off first from a dilute HCl acid, until the solution concentrates to azeotrope (concentration mix with water),(somewhere around 32%),then further heating will boil off the acid as HCL gas(hydrogen chloride gas), 32% or about there (from my memory) is about as concentrated as you can get it by these means.

No you don’t need HCl acid reduced down from 35% to a purer form.

Nitric can dissolve some types of plastics and it eats rubber,
Nitric is also a strong oxidizer and can be dangerous with organic materials, Teflon can handle nitric acid fine, glass can also, and it is stored in stainless steel, caution here some grades of stainless steel can not handle it if they are magnetic and have a high Iron content.

Even in glass I am careful with nitric acid, lets say we have a metal powder like copper or higher in series, if I dump a load of nitric in it not only possibly foaming and violently splashing out of jar with huge cloud of the big red deadly cloud, the heat generated can raise the temperature so fast as to thermally shock an break the glass, this would be a mess I don't need.
goggle measurements and conversions copy info, get measuring cups marked in metric, I like you am too old for metric and tried not to ever learn it but now I am using it ( although sometimes I struggle its not that bad), my wife told me I was born in the wrong century I would be happy 200 years ago, I tried for years to stay away from computers thinking they would be the end of the world now I am on one almost daily, would not use or get a microwave oven for many years thinking it can not be healthy eating food cooked with radiation, guess what now I nuke it for supper. :roll:

Below is from forum handbook:

Nothing appears wrong with yours a first glance, except in mine I’m not leaving any Hydrogen
Behind as follows:
H2SO4 + 2 NaNO3 --> Na2SO4 + 2HNO3
The big difference in my recipe is the solubility of the sodium sulfate salt (as opposed to
Sodium hydrogen sulfate you produce) and the fact that my equation yields twice the nitric
Acid at a higher temperature ( no dry ice, just salted ice ).
I’ve run the numbers like you did and ended up with about 160 mL of 50% nitric (give or take
A few percent), for a single mole of 96% sulfuric and using 100mL H2O to dissolve the nitre.
I won’t bore everyone with the math, but here’s my summary (PM me to see all the factors I
Used to derive this reaction):
Reaction:
-Bring 100 mL of Distilled Water in a 500 mL Pyrex beaker to 100 C
-Add the Nitre of your choice (202 gm K / 170 gm Na)
-Stir until Nitre is completely dissolved, let cool below boiling
-SLOWLY add 56 mL conc. (96%+) Sulfuric Acid to Hot Nitre solution while stirring, DON’T
Allow the solution to boil!
-Allow solution to cool to room temp (DO NOT SKIP - VESSEL WILL SHATTER IF PUT ON ICE
WHILE HOT!!!)
-When vessel reaches room temp (25 °C) put the vessel in the freezer or on a salt water ice
Bath
-Let stand until temperature of mixture reaches -5 °C
-Let stand at -5 °C until all percipitate settles
-Pour the COLD solution off into glass container with tightly sealed lid DO NOT POUR OFF ANY
OF THE SALT IN THE BOTTOM!!!
-Makes ~160 mL ~50% HNO3 K= Potassium NA= Sodium
This acid in turn can be used to make true AR with the standard 4:1 recipe (HCl:HNO3).
Steve:
I used Sodium Nitrate (16%) and concentrated sulfuric acid (battery acid from NAPA) that I
Boiled down to Specific Gravity of 1.8 Grams per 1 ML. I found that commercial battery acid
Is 65% H2O and 35% of 98% Concentrated H2SO4. I measured the SG of the Battery acid
And found it to be 1.25 SG and then boiled 1000 ml of the battery acid down to 360 ML and
Re-measured the SG and it came out to be 1.80 SG per 1 ml. 1.84 sp per 1ml at 25‘C would
Have been 98%. Unfortunately I don’t have any specialized laboratory equipment for precise
Measuring of the specific gravity and concentration percentage of this H2SO4, but my
Calculations put it in the 90+ % range. Catfish
You are absolutely correct about the boiling temp of H2SO4, My book sez 338C or 640.4F
 
Well...my grandmother use to tell me, NEVER start something on Sunday, it probably wouldn’t work…Well, sure enough, the sub-zero I generated today (Sunday) afternoon only cleans copper REALLY good - lol, but doesn’t dissolve it at all!!! I will go back Monday and buy the REAL NAPA battery acid (96%). Apparently CarQuest battery acid @ $4 is a whole lot more water than anything else. The process goes together really well. I assembled it on my newly erected shed’s front porch, with that awning I’ve been looking to hang for the last five years. I really enjoy working with this stuff in the yard. I don’t know who it was that suggested it on a different thread, but it’s a brilliant idea...lots of light...lots of air circulation 8)

Will update after I attempt this with the NAPA grade battery acid (96%).
Thanks a heap,
-Nolan
 
NAPA battery acid is only 35% you'll have to boil it down to about 1/3 of it's original volume to get it concentrated.

Steve
 
OOOOHHHHHH...no wonder it didn't work!!! Somewhere in this pile of debris that I've collected over the decades, I have a battery acid tester...guess I'll have to find it. Or just simply boil it down, like you said :lol: It sure does make a great copper cleaner!!

Thanks a bunch for your input :!:
Nolan
 
Nolan said:
OOOOHHHHHH...no wonder it didn't work!!! Somewhere in this pile of debris that I've collected over the decades, I have a battery acid tester...guess I'll have to find it. Or just simply boil it down, like you said :lol: It sure does make a great copper cleaner!!

Thanks a bunch for your input :!:
Nolan
Click to expand...


http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=342&p=2792&hilit=concentrated+battery+acid#p2792
 
Didn't your Amalgamite come with instructions?

If this is the same product as sold on eBay you are supposed to separate this by cupellation similar to a fire assay. In a bone ash cup the Amalgamite is roasted away leaving your gold behind. If this metal contains any tin by design or from use, using nitric acid to dissolve it is going to cause problems. Before you end up with a big bucket of gunk and a much bigger project you may want to use this material as intended.
 
What metal is this amalgam with? Is lead or mercury involved here?
These details will help you get a good answer.

Heck I didnt think about tin or bismuth. :shock:
 

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