Gold will not drop

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FrugalRefiner

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A piece of advice to new members: click on the members logo. How long ago he signed up is an indication for his level of experience. Not always, but generally speaking so.
You don't even need to click on their name in the new software. Just hover your cursor over the member's name and you can see when they joined and when they last visited.

Dave
 

Quiklearner

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IMHO, this is a perfect example of jumping into things with a lack of understanding and the mess doing so can create.

It simply just isn't enough to know what chemicals to use from watching videos. You have to educate yourself how these reactions work.
 

Geo

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There are only a couple of very specific reasons to evaporate to dryness and none of them apply to what you are doing. Rehydrate the crystals with HCl. For your problem, PH is not going to be a major problem. It just needs to be acidic. There was a process you could have used and been done by now, cementation. Add copper metal and anything more valuable would have cemented out as a metal. It could have been left to settle and gathered for further processing or melt like it is until you can learn more about what you are trying to do.

Pick someone with the experience you need and follow what they say exactly. When you choose, pay no attention to anyone else, unless it's an admin.
 

Quiklearner

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@Geo : Just like Kurtak, today I stumbled on this tread and while reading it I was thinking to myself "When in doubt, cement it out" as in FrugalRefiner's Oct 25 posting.
 
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kurtak

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There are only a couple of very specific reasons to evaporate to dryness and none of them apply to what you are doing. Rehydrate the crystals with HCl. For your problem, PH is not going to be a major problem. It just needs to be acidic. There was a process you could have used and been done by now, cementation. Add copper metal and anything more valuable would have cemented out as a metal. It could have been left to settle and gathered for further processing or melt like it is until you can learn more about what you are trying to do.

Pick someone with the experience you need and follow what they say exactly. When you choose, pay no attention to anyone else, unless it's an admin.
He already tried that - he had so much bleach it dissolved all his copper without dropping any gold
The copper completely dissolved. Nothing at the bottom. I'm going to try boiling away the chlorine like Geo said.

Now that he has evaporated it down to solids the gold (as well as "some" copper) may well be in those solids as "actual" gold &/or copper --- Take a look at his second picture last post - you will see what looks like actual copper in it --- so IF (the BIG IF) the salts will dissolve in water there is a good chance he will get at least some of his gold back with just water

There may (or not) be oxidizers tied up in the salts so going to HCl first may (or not) cause metal to redissolve which is why I suggest just water to start with & see what we get

If just water doesn't work then yes I would next try HCl

Even then - I have seen salts like this that will not dissolve in acid

Should that end up being the case (let's hope not) he "may" need to go to a calcination process followed by ether a leaching process &/or smelting process

Regardless - starting with 10 pounds of fingers - it is worth chasing - if nothing else - for the learning process

As we know - there is more then one way to skin a cat

Personally - IMO - I would start with the potential easiest (just water) & work up the ladder from there

ALL solutions will need testing (even just water) just to make sure

Kurt
 
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sleepyman1

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Wow, so much here suddenly.

Look I want to be clear that I am fully aware that I was and still am ignorant to this. I thought from watching some videos that this was a pretty simple thing to do. WRONG. Also, I have psychologically accepted my dumbass mistakes and the fact that I may have FUBARed this whole thing. I would like to continue a bit more to see if I can get some gold no matter how small the amount. And to learn!

Kurt, I'm following you from now on and only you. All others, post advice if you want but, it's clear I need to pick one expert and follow only him. My eyes are on you for every step going forward Kurtak.

Kurt the sand like material dissolved almost instantly. Producing greenish liquid and a white powder. See pic. The black material dissolved quickly and produced a blueish liquid with white powder and some blackish powder at the bottom. See pic. The solid hard material did not dissolve any and I have it on heat right now. Two hours in heating I pulled a piece out and the chunk is nearly completely white. The liquid it is producing is nearly black.

The blueish liquid tested 5 pH. The greenish liquid tested 2 pH. The black liquid tested 3 pH.

Given these results, what is the next step?

The dissolved sand like material.
20220102_155755.jpg


The dissolved black material.

20220102_155813.jpg



Another look at the dissolved black stuff.

20220102_155817.jpg
 

pfg0200

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Assuming the only acid you used was HCl, the white sand is probably silver chloride
My recommendations:
1. Make gold test solution using tin solder.
2. Test your liquids for dissolved gold.
3. If no dissolved gold - filter all the solids
4. Take the filtrate, boil in water
5. Filter again
6. Treat filtrate with HCl only. If liquid does not turn blue/green/black. Move on to 7. Otherwise, keeping treating with acid and filtering
7. I hate the bleach method. Do this instead: purchase sodium nitrate and sulfuric acid. Take your filtrate with brown and white solids and add to large beaker. For a 2000mL beaker add: filtrate + some sodium nitrate, then slowly add 500 mL muriatic acid (HCl). Carefully using a dropper add slowly 100mL sulfuric acid (small amounts at a time).
The liquid should turn orange, forming aqua regia. The sulfuric acid helps remove lead. Gently heat, observe to see if all the brown dissolved. If no, try adding a little more sodium nitrate. When all the brown dissolved, heat until no NOX is forming.
Let cool and test with gold test solution. Filter the solution. The liquid passing through the filter should be dissolved gold. Drop and repeat
 

Yggdrasil

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Assuming the only acid you used was HCl, the white sand is probably silver chloride
My recommendations:
1. Make gold test solution using tin solder.
2. Test your liquids for dissolved gold.
3. If no dissolved gold - filter all the solids
4. Take the filtrate, boil in water
5. Filter again
6. Treat filtrate with HCl only. If liquid does not turn blue/green/black. Move on to 7. Otherwise, keeping treating with acid and filtering
7. I hate the bleach method. Do this instead: purchase sodium nitrate and sulfuric acid. Take your filtrate with brown and white solids and add to large beaker. For a 2000mL beaker add: filtrate + some sodium nitrate, then slowly add 500 mL muriatic acid (HCl). Carefully using a dropper add slowly 100mL sulfuric acid (small amounts at a time).
The liquid should turn orange, forming aqua regia. The sulfuric acid helps remove lead. Gently heat, observe to see if all the brown dissolved. If no, try adding a little more sodium nitrate. When all the brown dissolved, heat until no NOX is forming.
Let cool and test with gold test solution. Filter the solution. The liquid passing through the filter should be dissolved gold. Drop and repeat
Pfg
He has stated he is following Kurt.
This procedure is way to advanced at his current level.
So let him take his steps with Kurt.
When his next venture arrives, he may expand his horizon with some one else😏
 

kurtak

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Assuming the only acid you used was HCl, the white sand is probably silver chloride

pfg - if you go back & read his first post - he started with 10 pounds of fingers - used CuCl2 (aka AP) to recover gold foils - he then used HCl + Cl2 (chlorine) - (bleach for Cl2 source) to dissolve foils

So NO silver involved (so "no" AgCl)

He WAY over shot the bleach --- tried to drop gold with SMB but no gold due to VERY excessive Cl2 in solution

So he tried to cement with copper putting copper in solution as CuCl2

Without going into more details he has done a couple other things to "more then likely" cause the CuCl2 to reduce to CuCl - or copper(1)chloride --- which does not dissolve in water but dissolves in HCL

so at this point the white sands/powder is likely CuCl --- as well as "possibly" other salts (likely sodium salts) considering "other" things done


7. I hate the bleach method. Do this instead: purchase sodium nitrate and sulfuric acid. Take your filtrate with brown and white solids and add to large beaker. For a 2000mL beaker add: filtrate + some sodium nitrate, then slowly add 500 mL muriatic acid (HCl). Carefully using a dropper add slowly 100mL sulfuric acid (small amounts at a time).
The liquid should turn orange, forming aqua regia. The sulfuric acid helps remove lead. Gently heat, observe to see if all the brown dissolved. If no, try adding a little more sodium nitrate. When all the brown dissolved, heat until no NOX is forming.
Let cool and test with gold test solution. Filter the solution. The liquid passing through the filter should be dissolved gold. Drop and repeat

that is certainly "one" way to skin the cat - but - first we need to find the gold - (not sure at this point if its in solution - in the solids - or both)

once we find the gold we will move forward with how to get it where he can melt a button or bar

Kurt
 

kurtak

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Wow, so much here suddenly.

Look I want to be clear that I am fully aware that I was and still am ignorant to this. I thought from watching some videos that this was a pretty simple thing to do. WRONG. Also, I have psychologically accepted my dumbass mistakes and the fact that I may have FUBARed this whole thing. I would like to continue a bit more to see if I can get some gold no matter how small the amount. And to learn!

Not a problem - we OFTEN get people that end up getting in trouble from watching you tube videos --- those videos (for the most part) are VERY limited in the info they provide - which leads to problems - those problems then "often" end up here & here is the place where we solve those problems
Kurt, I'm following you from now on and only you. All others, post advice if you want but, it's clear I need to pick one expert and follow only him. My eyes are on you for every step going forward Kurtak.

Thank you for the vote of confidence - BUT - I am not the only one you should take advice from - as I have said "there is more then one way to skin a cat AND I don't know everything - there are others here very much qualified to help you - in fact in this situation likely more qualified as I personally have never used the HCl/bleach process

Thats because I have always been able to get nitric acid VERY CHEAP so have always used nitric to dissolve my gold rather then the (several) other "work arounds" for dissolving gold

In this case - if I had to trust ONE other person (there are others BUT in this case) picking ONE it would be Geo

I trust Geo absolutely - you can trust him as well - so I hope he will chime in as well

My next post will be to address your situation now that you have dissolved what you can with water

Kurt
 

kurtak

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Sleepyman1

From your pictures - it looks like you are working out of regular canning jars - those are made of lime glass & though you can "get away" with using them - they are subject to breaking when you apply heat to them which in turn can/will lead to loosing everything when they break

we need to get you better equipped (your gold isn't going anywhere)

Besides needing to put things on a hot plate - chemical reactions produce heat which can cause "jars" to break --- also - do not trust Pyrex like Pyrex measuring cups etc.

You need to get some borosilicate glassware - beakers are made of borosilicate glass - so are coffee pots - go to the local thrift store & buy yourself some glass coffee pots - also when you are at the thrift store - if you see any Vision Ware pots like these - BUY THEM


That said - lets move on from where you are now that you have dissolved what has dissolved with water

You have three different things - we will address them one at a time

The solid hard material did not dissolve any and I have it on heat right now.

If - as it appears - you are working out of "jars" I am a bit concerned --- I hope it has not broke on the hot plate &/or if you took it off the hot plate broke when it cooled

If it is still on the hot plate (& has not broke) take it off the hot plate BUT FIRST have a "catch bucket" to put the jar in when you take the jar off the hot plate as the jar "may" break when it cools --- if you think the jar is hot enough to melt plastic put a plate in the bottom of the bucket & set the jar on the plate

Once you get some glass coffee pots to work out of (&/or Vision Ware) we will get back to this

The black material dissolved quickly and produced a blueish liquid with white powder and some blackish powder at the bottom

Lets address this one first as I "think" the black solids "may be" where at least "some" of your gold (& copper) is

The white solids are likely copper(1)chloride (CuCl) and as well "may be" some sodium salts/compounds

The CuCl will dissolve in HCl --- the sodium (if any) may - or not - dissolve with HCl --- that doesn't really matter at this time - but - what we want to do is get rid of the CuCl

So what you need to do if pour or siphon off as much of the blue water as you can leaving the solids in the jar (the more water you can pour/siphon off the better)

A plastic bucket will work fine for putting the blue water in (we still need to test this)

Then - the solids in the jar - you can do this in the jar (though a coffee pot would be better) just be sure you do it with the jar in a catch bucket/pan --- add some HCl - the HCl will dissolve any CuCl --- it may - or not dissolve other stuff - that's what we want to find out

Start with a couple cups of HCl --- lets see what dissolves & what doesn't - if not everything dissolves add another cup or two of HCl & see if more dissolves - or not --- test for Ph - you want to get to Ph 1

If nothing more dissolves (assuming there are still solids) after the second addition of HCl (& Ph is at 1) we are done with this step

Test this HCl acid solution with stannous

Let us know the results & we can then move on to the next step with these solids

Concerning the blue water you poured off

The blueish liquid tested 5 pH.

you clearly have copper dissolved in this water & more likely then not there is no gold in this otherwise it would likely be more green then blue - BUT - we want to test just to be sure

Ph 5 is high for an accurate stannous test so you want to adjust the Ph down to at least Ph 2 with HCl --- it won't take much - start with say 2 or 3 ounces & add an ounce at a time till you hit (at least) Ph 2 & then test with your stannous

There is more then one way to do a stannous test - my preferred way is to dip a Q-tip in the solution to get it wet & then put a drop of stannous on the solution wetted Q-tip which will turn purple if gold is in solution

So if you don't get a (purple) positive stannous test we are done with that solution & it can go in you waste solution bucket (we will deal with your waste later)

IF (the BIG IF) you do get a positive test we will deal with that once we know that

Lets get this one done - see what the results are - before moving on

Just a couple more notes; ------

These things always work better if you can provide heat so it's better if you can do it in a coffee pot on a hot plate at a "low" setting --- in this case you can "get way" doing it cold in a jar as the CuCl is easily dissolved in HCl - just be sure to keep the jar in a catch bucket/pan

Also - when dissolving these solids you want to stir them up into the acid so you need a plastic or glass spoon/rod --- NEVER use metal

Kurt
 

sleepyman1

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OK. You and Geo it is going forward.

I'm using Pyrex kitchenware right now. The images show plastic containers I used for storage after I dissolved it in the Pyrex. I've had it on the heat all day and night and so far so good. I have access to high school chemistry equipment the teacher would probably let me borrow things. Would those beakers suffice? If not I will buy my own. How does this set look to you?


The hard chunks of material produced a very black liquid and had only dissolved about 20%, I'm guessing. This evening I siphoned off that liquid and added fresh water. I saved the liquid in a plastic container. Was that OK?

I'll have 95/5 solder by Friday and will make my own stannous. Then I'll start dissolving and testing with that.

So much to do. I'll get started on all of the work this weekend

Thanks a lot!
 

sleepyman1

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An update.

The black liquid that I siphoned off has now reformed a solid at the bottom of the container. It was 100% liquid when I siphoned it out. Now it has solids forming. There is still black liquid on top of it.

The fresh water that I poured into the remaining original solids formed a deeper blue liquid. All of the chunks are gone. Now a white powder is there. Like the other containers.20220104_175742.jpg20220104_175818.jpg
 

kurtak

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An update.

The black liquid that I siphoned off has now reformed a solid at the bottom of the container. It was 100% liquid when I siphoned it out. Now it has solids forming. There is still black liquid on top of it.

The fresh water that I poured into the remaining original solids formed a deeper blue liquid. All of the chunks are gone. Now a white powder is there. Like the other containers.

Hot solutions will hold more dissolved salts then a cold solution (whether those dissolved salts are metal salts or chemical salts)

so when you used hot water to dissolve those chunks (& it all dissolved) when the water cooled "some" of those salts recrystallized --- you just need more water to re-dissolve them --- because they are not "hard chunks" this time they will dissolve easier now

Per the bold print (in above quote) - again - the white powders (salts) are likely CuCl &/or sodium salts

Until you get your solder to make your stannous just let things sit (that will give any solids that didn't dissolve time to settle)

When you have your stannous we will move forward - one step at a time - with the different solutions &/or solids

don't confuse the issue by doing this & that - your gold isn't going anywhere

One thing - one step - at a time

All I have time for today

Kurt
 

sleepyman1

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Here is the stannous test result. The black dots came from the stannous. Doesn't the crystals in the black solution have a gold tinge to them?

From left to right: Green solution, Green solution, Blue solution, Black solution.
20220113_163640.jpg20220113_163619.jpg
 

FrugalRefiner

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Here is the stannous test result. The black dots came from the stannous. Doesn't the crystals in the black solution have a gold tinge to them?
I can see almost any color I want to see there. I see black, tan/yellow/gold, purple, green, blue, etc. I'm not trying to be a jerk (though some folks might say that comes naturally to me), but I don't see gold tinged crystals.

Gold can sometimes (rarely) precipitate in such a way that it can actually form crystals large enough to be visibly gold. But what I see from your pictures looks like residual base metal salts. I don't see the classic purple stain I would expect for gold. Have you tested your stannous to be sure it is still effective?

Dave
 
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