HCL that dissolves gold !

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tamerakshar

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Messages
59
Location
Egypt
:?:
Why HCL always dissolve my gold powder ?
The powder was boiled in water and let to dry, and when i added HCL it was vey dry.
No water added while boiling in HCL.
 
What percent is the HCl? Was there a reason you let the gold dry before washing again in HCl?You dont have to do that,just pour off as much of the water as you can,then add the HCl and continue washing.But you need to answer what percent your HCl is first,and I assume that it is new?
How did you get your gold powder?Did you use either aqua regia or nitric when processing?And if you used either of those did you incinerate your foils before washing?I know it is a lot of questions,but Its hard to give you an accurate answer without knowing all of the procedures you used.Start with the AR or nitric question.If the answer is yes then I(or someone else) can help you fix your problem from there.If the answer is no,then I need you to answer the other questions.Sorry.
Johnny
 
Leaveme ALone said it best sorry Noxx,

It is very hard to answer your question bud, without the specifics of the refining procedure used. Trust me, I have used some insanely stupid procedures to refine in the past, it won't hurt anyones feelings here if you divuldge a hairy procedure.

My best advice is to incinerate the gold powder before adding any HCL to eliminate any nitrates from the solution you used. However, If this is the case do not discard any solutions from this process, as they may contain gold or other PM's.


Read Up,

Nick
 
sometimes when I test a spent solution with stannous, I get a yellow color. Does that suggest there is still a small amount of gold in solution? Just curious. I didn't want to start the waste process on these solutions "prematurely".

Thanks!
 
- All processed in diluted nitric
- Diluted then filtered very well
- Incinerated twice in 316 grade stainless container
- washed 3x in hot HCL to get rid of un dissolved contaminates
- Dissolved in HCL-CL then 2 days to get rid of chlorine
- Applied SMB
Regarding that the 3x hot HCL washes dissolved gold, even when i try to wash the powder i let it to dry between water and HCL washes, that no HCL-H2O2 occurs at the same time which dissolves gold at 50 C.
I buy HCL in commercial grade in 50 litres drums at 29% Conc.
I hope that helped
P.S. You can always check a member knowledge from his post history.
 
From a glance everything looks in order.The only anomally I can think of is if you accidentally did something out of order.There is one thing I see that I think you may want to do from now on,after you process in nitric and before you incinerate,you need to do a couple of clean water washes to get off as much of the nitrates as you can before you incinerate.I wonder if maybe your incineration wasnt hot enough to burn off the nitric,and the added water washes can help with that.It WILL NOT substitue incineration though.I hope none of this sounds condesending,I know you've been here a little while but Im just lending my insite to the problem.
Johnny
 
Tamerakshar,

Reading your 2 posts in this thread I am unsure if the gold you are dissolving is that left after inquartation and removal of silver by nitric then incinerated or your recovered gold powder after SMB. The only real difference between the 2 in this case is that the finer the gold is (meaning grain size) the easier it will be for it to go into solution.

Gold readily goes into solution with HCl with the addition of an oxidizer and it does not take much. You mentioned that you are careful and do not add H2O to your dried gold and HCl so I guess that you are concerned about the oxygen in the water. Remember that your 29% HCl is still mainly water. You also mention 50 C as a critical temperature or threshold for putting gold into solution with HCl-H2O2. I can assure you that I put gold into solution with HCl-H2O2 all last winter in an unheated lab at a few degrees over freezing, yes heat helps.

Because of your washing of your gold with H2O then double incineration I am willing to believe you have removed your nitrates. So by default I suspect that you are putting your gold into solution by simple aeration by either stirring or boiling, much like people here use an aquarium bubbler to rejuvenate their AP with the addition of nothing more than regular air.

I am not a chemist (maybe they can give some greater detail) but I can share my empirical evidence and observations in my own refining. If I take well washed gold powder from an SMB precipitation and put it in a beaker and add HCl with no additional water, and place it on a hot stir plate at a low temperature setting and a high stir rate the gold powder will dissolve, completely. The action of the stir bar chops in enough air to supply the oxygen to take the gold into solution.

A second case is one I just talked to a chemist about this weekend coincidentally. I had a mixed PGM precipitation that was well washed then covered with HCl to prevent drying of the particulate, I let it set for a few months. When I went to work with this precipitate I noticed the color of the HCl so tested with stannic receiving a positive result. After decanting off the HCl I processed the solution with a standard PGM precipitation. I recovered over 5 grams of ammonium hexachloropalladate from this HCl. After some research (as well as confirmation from a chemist) I found that palladium will go into HCl with exposure to air over time even without agitation.

I hope this helps you and perhaps sinks home the message to others how important it is to always test your solutions even when you have an element that the books will say "does not dissolve in HCl alone". The books are right to a point, but it takes an oxidizer as simple as air over time without agitation and it is no longer just HCl.

P.S. I did not check your knowledge from your past posting history, so I may have just told you information you already know. If that is the case I apologize in advance, but there are others reading that may find the additional information useful. I do not mean this in a bad way, but sometimes post replies are written in greater detail than needed by the individual asking the question so as to benefit others. I wrote all of the above when I could have simply replied by giving a one word answer "air".

Edit: spelling
 
The action of the stir bar chops in enough air to supply the oxygen to take the gold into solution.
Can someone explain to me what a "stir bar"is?I've boiled hundreds of beakers filled with HCl and gold foils/dust/powder and never once stirred it fast enough to put the gold into solution.Am I missing something here,or is my muratic just really weak stuff.......lol.
Johnny
 
A stir bar is an iron bar typically coated with Teflon or other acid resistant material that you place in your beaker that is on a stir plate or hot stir plate. Under the surface of the stir plate is a magnet that is on an armature that spins at rates that usually top out around 1200-1250 revolutions per minute. You would need a fast arm indeed to duplicate that.

Edit: for spelling
 
Ahh That makes so much more sense than I was thinking.........lol.My arm is getting sore just thinking about it.lol.
Johnny
 
Oz,
you made me :oops:, first from your politeness and second from your fatal info you mentioned.
the 2 piece of info you said i do occasionally
- i boil in HCL
- i stir a lot but with a glass rod
so, what do you think
thx Oz for sharing such an info.
 
tamerakshar said:
so, what do you think

I think it takes a lot of boiling or stirring by hand to put a significant amount of gold into straight HCl. How long are you boiling if you are only stirring by hand? Is it the finer gold powder after SMB you are having this problem with? Mechanical stirring or prolonged agitation with air changes things.

All things considered it is not a great problem. Any gold that does not go into solution will be well washed of your most common contaminates but silver and lead chloride. The gold that has gone into the HCl can be re-precipitated again with SMB giving you a twice refined much purer gold.

I am glad you understood and did not take offense to my comment about reading your posting history before replying.
 
leavemealone said:
The action of the stir bar chops in enough air to supply the oxygen to take the gold into solution.
Can someone explain to me what a "stir bar"is?I've boiled hundreds of beakers filled with HCl and gold foils/dust/powder and never once stirred it fast enough to put the gold into solution.Am I missing something here,or is my muratic just really weak stuff.......lol.
Johnny

Stir bar.

I never used them, but if memory serves, they're a coated bar, magnetic, that is placed in a beaker, where it becomes a mixing bar by a magnetic device beneath the beaker that keeps it in motion. I could see no place for them in refining.

I refined gold for over 20 years and never had any re-dissolve in HCl alone, and I did my washing with chlorinated tap water. I did experience, on rare occasions, gold that had not been fully precipitated, leaving behind traces of gold chloride. That usually occurred when precipitating heavily concentrated solutions, where drag down was trapped within the early precipitated gold particles and never exposed to SO2.

I had a strict policy of keeping the beaker covered with a watch glass when washing gold (to keep it clean), so the atmosphere in the beaker was likely low on free oxygen.

I would look to contaminated HCl before suspecting anything else. If the HCl gives off gasses, or it is discolored in the least, that's exactly what I would suspect.

Harold
 
tamerakshar,

Are you sure you are dissolveing gold? I can't see any mention of testing your wash solution with stannous. If you are jusgeing the loss by weight change, it could be base metals going into solution with the HCL, which is what the wash is for.

By the way what is the material you are refining?

Good Luck,
Nick
 
Tam,

Sorry bud, had to ask. This situation baffles me. I guess , I would have to go with OZ on this one. Not that I doubted him, :lol:

Good luck Tam,

Nick
 
Sulfuric acid dissolves Tin, but does it precipitate it as stannous sulfate salts ?
or it will dissolve Tin completely.
if precipitated as sulfate salt, i read its soluble in water and decomposes in hot water .
Am I Right :?:
GAUTEN TAG HAROLD :D
 
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