Hello! I have an 1860s Gold Price/Refining question

[Mint]

Yeah, that's what I say-- there should be an assay conversion factor or column somewhere with actual assays!!! I can not say that they pay the same to everyone-- I don't have the data. If I can't find some sorta chart to answer my question, I may have to back to California archives and dig thru all those boxes (stack was 5 feet high of records) again! It has NOT been digitized.... grrrrr I would be looking for lots of other people's melted weights versus payouts just to see if the factor used by Mint was the same. AND I would look possibly more ledgers that would have assays.

I will say that these murderers lied when they said WHERE this dust came from. It was not 'clean Boise'-- it should have said "Beaver head" like the entry above it. So I would have to compare other people's results to the same (wrong) location.
I am attaching the photo of several 'melting and refining' machines at the time...

I still should be able to find some kind of confirmation for that NMA chart in my first post. It showed the claimed official US Government $ per ounce which didn't change for 100 years...I have not so far. And even NMA told me that they don't keep historical records, so I have no idea where they got that.
Apparently I didn't get the other image from Mint posted . It only showed where they were staying and no gold, refining, assay, or $ info.- here it is.

 

[4metals]

This has been an interesting foray into how gold was logged into the mint 160 years ago combined with your personal interest in one transaction in particular. I cannot imagine how payouts were made to individual miners unless it was SOP to assign a value of X for every ounce of placer gold no matter the source. And follow that up with assays on bulk melts. The lack of those assay results traceable back to individual payouts says to a modern day refiner that there was a lot of money made under the table. Maybe there is some fact that pulls this all back into line that you have yet to discover but it seems logical they would be in the same ledgers.

I hope I have told you how it would be handled today and going back as long as I have been in the business. I hope you find that link you are looking for that pulls this all together if that is even possible. Keep us informed if you find it. Maybe you'll find out where Cornelius Vanderbilt got his start-up money or something equally interesting.

 

[Mint]

LOL on Vanderbilt! He was already going gangbusters by 1863, plus he was back east. He did start looking at railroads out west in the 1860s though.
I will tell you that this story which involved a mass murder in the mountain wilds of Idaho/Montana (and they still are) and a hotelier who tracked them down all the way to San FRan and brought them back to brand new Idaho Territory for the VERY first trial to take place after Lincoln had created the Idaho territory-- is a fascinating story. And it was news for a year ALL up and down the West coast. By going to the Archives, I confirmed what I had found on how much the Mint paid out. (And it was only a fraction of what the murderers stole-- mostly because they spent most of it on the way to SF.) But I have had to get into gold-- way more than expected! Thank you for your good wishes and thank you for all your comments and thoughts!
A little bit of this story is told in a short film I made: https://www.nezpercecountymuseum.com/ Go down almost a half way on home page to Lewiston Trailblazers and you can see a 30 second teaser(turn the sound on) for a digital purchase of only $14 to benefit the Historical Museum...

And of course I am writing a Narrative to document and tell this story... Thank you again!
(I'll still be checking for thoughts from anyone else....)

 

[goldshark]

So no separation of Silver from Gold?

You have to imagine back then, you were lucky to eat a meal of something other than salt pork and flap jacks made with flour and water. Sourdough if you were real lucky. I live in an area which was the site of the first Silver replacement in limestone type deposits in the whole western US. I have seen pictures of miners with burlap tied around their feet, in winter. Clomoring around on 14,000 ft. peaks trying to work and stake claims. To have HCl or Nitric was a real luxury. Only the biggest of mines had an assay office with such goodies. Hand sawing timber into boards was primarily done with whip saws, at least until commerce caught up to the richer areas. So sluice boxes and Hg were the go to system for any kind of mass placer mining. No refining done in the wilds. Back then, there were no banks, so Gold was the currency for the most part. They still needed to trade and the only legitimate source of script was the US government. Plus, who didn't trust big brother back then? Times were a lot different back then.
For those that don't know, placer Gold will naturally become purer, the further it travels from its source. The Gold close to the source is generally about 750 fine, yet 10 miles down stream, it ramps up to the 800 fine and above. It varies with the particle size.
The US mint was the only authorized buyer of Au produced in the US. At least for a while, until they authorized licensed buyers.
So like in todays world with non govmint owned refiners, you are at the mercy of their honesty, when it comes to an assay and pay out. As we all have heard the story of people getting ripped off when sending amounts to private refineries, one has to consider also the unscrupulous seller, possibly cutting his Gold with Brass, or some other impurity, trying for a bigger pay day.
In todays world, you can send in 4-9s Au you know is very pure, but the refiner will never take your word for it, until they prove to themselves there isn't a Tungsten bar, or similar, inside it. Just good business practice.
Long story short, there was no refining at the mines. EVERY lot had a different assay. Most miners cleaned their Au as much as possible, to reduce shipping costs, but it definitely was not refined to 4-9s Au.
I am sure the mint has records of the assays, but would be in another book than the ledger for payments.

 

[Mint]

You have to imagine back then, you were lucky to eat a meal of something other than salt pork and flap jacks made with flour and water. Sourdough if you were real lucky. I live in an area which was the site of the first Silver replacement in limestone type deposits in the whole western US. I have seen pictures of miners with burlap tied around their feet, in winter. Clomoring around on 14,000 ft. peaks trying to work and stake claims. To have HCl or Nitric was a real luxury. Only the biggest of mines had an assay office with such goodies. Hand sawing timber into boards was primarily done with whip saws, at least until commerce caught up to the richer areas. So sluice boxes and Hg were the go to system for any kind of mass placer mining. No refining done in the wilds. Back then, there were no banks, so Gold was the currency for the most part. They still needed to trade and the only legitimate source of script was the US government. Plus, who didn't trust big brother back then? Times were a lot different back then.
For those that don't know, placer Gold will naturally become purer, the further it travels from its source. The Gold close to the source is generally about 750 fine, yet 10 miles down stream, it ramps up to the 800 fine and above. It varies with the particle size.
The US mint was the only authorized buyer of Au produced in the US. At least for a while, until they authorized licensed buyers.
So like in todays world with non govmint owned refiners, you are at the mercy of their honesty, when it comes to an assay and pay out. As we all have heard the story of people getting ripped off when sending amounts to private refineries, one has to consider also the unscrupulous seller, possibly cutting his Gold with Brass, or some other impurity, trying for a bigger pay day.
In todays world, you can send in 4-9s Au you know is very pure, but the refiner will never take your word for it, until they prove to themselves there isn't a Tungsten bar, or similar, inside it. Just good business practice.
Long story short, there was no refining at the mines. EVERY lot had a different assay. Most miners cleaned their Au as much as possible, to reduce shipping costs, but it definitely was not refined to 4-9s Au.
I am sure the mint has records of the assays, but would be in another book than the ledger for payments.

Yes, exactly. The miners only did what was expected of them..and honestly they did pretty good, considering the SF Mint found a 3.8% melt weight.
I have been thru a 5 foot high stack of ledger books in San Bruno trying to find all the relevant records. It is possible I missed the assay records, but I requested the staff to bring them all. Did you see the records I have posted above? I still think the US Govern 'official gold payouts' should be online somewhere besides the NMA --- who can't verify them. Have you come across them?
Thank you very much for your comments!

 

[goldshark]

Yes, exactly. The miners only did what was expected of them..and honestly they did pretty good, considering the SF Mint found a 3.8% melt weight.
I have been thru a 5 foot high stack of ledger books in San Bruno trying to find all the relevant records. It is possible I missed the assay records, but I requested the staff to bring them all. Did you see the records I have posted above? I still think the US Govern 'official gold payouts' should be online somewhere besides the NMA --- who can't verify them. Have you come across them?
Thank you very much for your comments!

Dang, I don't know any body alive who can tell me where these records would be kept. Maybe somebody in a museum, or an historian, knows the protocol for record storage at the mint. Surely modern mints would need to keep similar records, probably online now a days. Don't know if they had any fires which may have consumed them. There are some historical newspapers on line for further research. Or possibly destroyed after X amount of years after payout. Records may be kept at the National Archives, I believe in Washington.

 

[4metals]

For those that don't know, placer Gold will naturally become purer, the further it travels from its source. The Gold close to the source is generally about 750 fine, yet 10 miles down stream, it ramps up to the 800 fine and above. It varies with the particle size.

This is interesting, it makes sense that all of the quartz or pyrite inclusions will break off with distance from the source which makes it even more odd that there was a consistent melt loss on the gold brought to the mint.

It does make sense that each lot was melted to determine an after melt weight, it does not make sense that assay data was not more forthcoming.

@goldshark lives in the country where this was prevalent in the 19th century so he has seen more. All I can think of was from seeing westerns when a kid on TV the gold miners often paid in nuggets and dust for everything. And historically it is well documented that the merchants made out the best in the gold rush. Having to wait 30 days for a payout would make the dust and nuggets the only payment option for the miners.

Interesting fact that the gold content of nuggets varied with distance from the source. I wonder what the mechanism of that "natural" refining actually was.

 

[Mint]

Dang, I don't know any body alive who can tell me where these records would be kept. Maybe somebody in a museum, or an historian, knows the protocol for record storage at the mint. Surely modern mints would need to keep similar records, probably online now a days. Don't know if they had any fires which may have consumed them. There are some historical newspapers on line for further research. Or possibly destroyed after X amount of years after payout. Records may be kept at the National Archives, I believe in Washington.

You all are so fabulous trying to help solve my question! I have already typed way too much here for everyone to read! But I have tried so many other alleys. Or rabbit holes... There are actually a number of US Mint Archives around the country, including DC. The one I thought is most relevant is just outside San Fran. Just to give you an idea. The Archives "finding aid" for this location is 38 pages long... just a short list of what they have and how it is catalogued. It is actually pretty well delineated. When I went there almost 2 years ago, I asked to have the boxes pulled that had to do with the dates of 1863-4 that I was interested in. I spent all bloody day looking and taking images-- I also had some help, part of the day. (Ya know you have to pass a test just to be able to go in there..) I have 1.5 GB of images... I have tried the NMA and also the US Mint-- left multiples emails and phone messages.. Etc! (BTW, San Fran fires don't seem to have affected these records...) I doubt records are kept online now.. privacy reasons...
Anyhow I would like to thank you all because I think I understand now why there is a different "No." for the pay out page and the deposit page. I have been wondering about that.. I suspect that the number used with the payout came from the assaying. No proof but it makes sense. Those records have to be at the Archives... When I found the $ reported in the newspapers of the time and also the original deposit, I was excited, even though I kept looking. Maybe the archivist didn't bring that cart-full out... there were so many... Hate the thought of going back through everything... That is why I still believe that what the US Goven paid out in that era should be known! Thanks again!

 

[Mint]

This is interesting, it makes sense that all of the quartz or pyrite inclusions will break off with distance from the source which makes it even more odd that there was a consistent melt loss on the gold brought to the mint.

It does make sense that each lot was melted to determine an after melt weight, it does not make sense that assay data was not more forthcoming.

@goldshark lives in the country where this was prevalent in the 19th century so he has seen more. All I can think of was from seeing westerns when a kid on TV the gold miners often paid in nuggets and dust for everything. And historically it is well documented that the merchants made out the best in the gold rush. Having to wait 30 days for a payout would make the dust and nuggets the only payment option for the miners.

Interesting fact that the gold content of nuggets varied with distance from the source. I wonder what the mechanism of that "natural" refining actually was.

 

[Mint]

Yeah, I've been thinking more about the assay data-- see the comment I just posted to @goldshark... There are different numbers and I am thinking that is a clue. I did look at EVERYTHING the archivist brought me but he may not have brought it all.... it was A LOT!
Yeah, gold was really the densest thing coming down those streams and the more tumbling- the more sorting. (Thus the use of sleuth boxes) The miners DID pay in dust, and not just at the remote mines.. everywhere in the Pacific Northwest and even California. It was a merchant-- who had been paid in gold dust-- who was murdered for his big load he had just sold out. (Actually murders were rare in the west-- theft more likely) Well, and the SF Mint was the ONLY mint on the west coast-- so transactions had to happen in other places besides there! "Greenbacks" were not even issued or legal tender until 1862-- because of Civil war. And they most certainly were NOT used in the remote areas of Washington, Idaho, Territories etc
Just still amazed that there aren't HISTORICAL GOLD PRICES posted all over ......
Thank you again... all this is very useful cause I keep thinking about it from different angles! Appreciate your perspectives!

 

[goldshark]

This is interesting, it makes sense that all of the quartz or pyrite inclusions will break off with distance from the source which makes it even more odd that there was a consistent melt loss on the gold brought to the mint.

It does make sense that each lot was melted to determine an after melt weight, it does not make sense that assay data was not more forthcoming.

@goldshark lives in the country where this was prevalent in the 19th century so he has seen more. All I can think of was from seeing westerns when a kid on TV the gold miners often paid in nuggets and dust for everything. And historically it is well documented that the merchants made out the best in the gold rush. Having to wait 30 days for a payout would make the dust and nuggets the only payment option for the miners.

Interesting fact that the gold content of nuggets varied with distance from the source. I wonder what the mechanism of that "natural" refining actually was.

The mechanism for increased Au fineness is this; The primary alloys of placer Gold are Cu,Ag,Pb, and possibly a little Zn. These elements either oxidize, or in the case of Ag sulfidize. Water movement plus predominately silica abrasive, constantly expose fresh surfaces. Add in the malleability of Au, and you have a particle getting hammered and leached by water. River water contains weak chemical components consisting of very weak solutions of sulphuric acid (from oxidizing pyrite ), manganese dioxide, etc.. Couple oxidized pyrite with manganese dioxide, you get chlorine. This is a very weak solution, but coupled with many tens of thousands or millions of years, and you will get increased fineness of placer Gold. This natural refining is more pronounced in smaller particles, mainly due to the higher surface exposure per unit weight, than 1 solid mass of the same unit weight,

 

[4metals]

River water contains weak chemical components consisting of very weak solutions of sulphuric acid (from oxidizing pyrite ), manganese dioxide, etc.. Couple oxidized pyrite with manganese dioxide, you get chlorine. This is a very weak solution, but coupled with many tens of thousands or millions of years, and you will get increased fineness of placer Gold.

My "I need results NOW" from modern refining makes it hard to think in terms of thousands or millions of years. Makes total sense given the time line nature applies. Thanks for slowing down my thought process.

 

[Southfork]

Yeah, I've been thinking more about the assay data-- see the comment I just posted to @goldshark... There are different numbers and I am thinking that is a clue. I did look at EVERYTHING the archivist brought me but he may not have brought it all.... it was A LOT!
Yeah, gold was really the densest thing coming down those streams and the more tumbling- the more sorting. (Thus the use of sleuth boxes) The miners DID pay in dust, and not just at the remote mines.. everywhere in the Pacific Northwest and even California. It was a merchant-- who had been paid in gold dust-- who was murdered for his big load he had just sold out. (Actually murders were rare in the west-- theft more likely) Well, and the SF Mint was the ONLY mint on the west coast-- so transactions had to happen in other places besides there! "Greenbacks" were not even issued or legal tender until 1862-- because of Civil war. And they most certainly were NOT used in the remote areas of Washington, Idaho, Territories etc
Just still amazed that there aren't HISTORICAL GOLD PRICES posted all over ......
Thank you again... all this is very useful cause I keep thinking about it from different angles! Appreciate your perspectives!

Not to throw this off track but out west and here in California a lot of Native Americans were killed or starved for gold bearing land so not rare. https://www.history.com/news/californias-little-known-genocide

 

[goldshark]

Yeah, I've been thinking more about the assay data-- see the comment I just posted to @goldshark... There are different numbers and I am thinking that is a clue. I did look at EVERYTHING the archivist brought me but he may not have brought it all.... it was A LOT!
Yeah, gold was really the densest thing coming down those streams and the more tumbling- the more sorting. (Thus the use of sleuth boxes) The miners DID pay in dust, and not just at the remote mines.. everywhere in the Pacific Northwest and even California. It was a merchant-- who had been paid in gold dust-- who was murdered for his big load he had just sold out. (Actually murders were rare in the west-- theft more likely) Well, and the SF Mint was the ONLY mint on the west coast-- so transactions had to happen in other places besides there! "Greenbacks" were not even issued or legal tender until 1862-- because of Civil war. And they most certainly were NOT used in the remote areas of Washington, Idaho, Territories etc
Just still amazed that there aren't HISTORICAL GOLD PRICES posted all over ......
Thank you again... all this is very useful cause I keep thinking about it from different angles! Appreciate your perspectives!

Also what possibly happened with the earth quake of 1906. Very devastating back then with many fires and a good over all shake up of many foundations under buildings, leading to many collapses. Keep going into the possible skimming from the govmint, Erin Brockovitch. The govmint may owe somebody a lot of dinero!

 

[Mint]

Also what possibly happened with the earth quake of 1906. Very devastating back then with many fires and a good over all shake up of many foundations under buildings, leading to many collapses. Keep going into the possible skimming from the govmint, Erin Brockovitch. The govmint may owe somebody a lot of dinero!

LOL- I'm not Brockovitch. This time... Just trying to document what happened.... And no, it would not be much-- difference... only 15% for this case.
I was addressing 1906 with "(BTW, San Fran fires don't seem to have affected these records...) " above. The fire that followed the 1906 earthquake was way more devastating..

 

[Mint]

Not to throw this off track but out west and here in California a lot of Native Americans were killed or starved for gold bearing land so not rare. https://www.history.com/news/californias-little-known-genocide

Of course!!!!!!! And not just California... It is an interesting and complex issue. I have a publication explaining how it was actually a Nez Perce woman who led the white colonists to the gold, which led to Pres Lincoln creating Idaho Territory....which led to the invasion of more whites...which led to clashes which led to genocide by white colonists against all the Northwest tribes.

 

[Mint]

The mechanism for increased Au fineness is this; The primary alloys of placer Gold are Cu,Ag,Pb, and possibly a little Zn. These elements either oxidize, or in the case of Ag sulfidize. Water movement plus predominately silica abrasive, constantly expose fresh surfaces. Add in the malleability of Au, and you have a particle getting hammered and leached by water. River water contains weak chemical components consisting of very weak solutions of sulphuric acid (from oxidizing pyrite ), manganese dioxide, etc.. Couple oxidized pyrite with manganese dioxide, you get chlorine. This is a very weak solution, but coupled with many tens of thousands or millions of years, and you will get increased fineness of placer Gold. This natural refining is more pronounced in smaller particles, mainly due to the higher surface exposure per unit weight, than 1 solid mass of the same unit weight,

Yes, plus for actively moving water-- which it was in those days (not like now with dams)-- there was entrained carbon dioxide making carbonic acid...

 

[goldshark]

Yes, plus for actively moving water-- which it was in those days (not like now with dams)-- there was entrained carbon dioxide making carbonic acid...

Maybe some of the local placer miners on this site, can shed some light to the fineness of the Gold recovered out there. I am willing to bet the mint only paid for the value of refined material at $20.67 Toz.

 

[Mint]

Maybe some of the local placer miners on this site, can shed some light to the fineness of the Gold recovered out there. I am willing to bet the mint only paid for the value of refined material at $20.67 Toz.

Well, one of my better skills is not 'medium-ship'...! Although at this point I sincerely wish it was... I have some questions for those people 160 years ago! Those locations have been ghost towns for decades and I have been to the locations. They were productive such a short time, there is nothing there now but piles of rock removed from the streams. In fact, one 'mine' had already been abandoned by the time in 1863 when the soon-to-be-murderered-supplier got there! He had to go several miles further to find the miners. The gold sources played out quickly. In fact, that is why Lewiston Idaho (the only place to ever have a Capital stolen) had its seat as the Capital of new Idaho Territory- literally papers, seal, etc stolen- and taken to Boise. Their mines were 'newer' in 1865.
So you believe the $20.67? I just wish I could confirm that number somewhere. I decided to look at Treasury reports to Congress from AFTER my era of interest and I do find a reference to the assayer and the SAMPLING for assaying, as @4metals described. It is likely this was valid 10 years earlier, but there are no reports earlier. Also (on page 423!) a fee for converting into coin. But honestly I don't know if that was done here. No mention...
Thanks again for all your thoughts....

 

[goldshark]

Well, one of my better skills is not 'medium-ship'...! Although at this point I sincerely wish it was... I have some questions for those people 160 years ago! Those locations have been ghost towns for decades and I have been to the locations. They were productive such a short time, there is nothing there now but piles of rock removed from the streams. In fact, one 'mine' had already been abandoned by the time in 1863 when the soon-to-be-murderered-supplier got there! He had to go several miles further to find the miners. The gold sources played out quickly. In fact, that is why Lewiston Idaho (the only place to ever have a Capital stolen) had its seat as the Capital of new Idaho Territory- literally papers, seal, etc stolen- and taken to Boise. Their mines were 'newer' in 1865.
So you believe the $20.67? I just wish I could confirm that number somewhere. I decided to look at Treasury reports to Congress from AFTER my era of interest and I do find a reference to the assayer and the SAMPLING for assaying, as @4metals described. It is likely this was valid 10 years earlier, but there are no reports earlier. Also (on page 423!) a fee for converting into coin. But honestly I don't know if that was done here. No mention...
Thanks again for all your thoughts....
View attachment 66131

I did a little on line research into the fineness of California Gold. It ran from the 700 fine to 900+ fine. The majority is in the 850 fine range. As stated above, the charge to the miner was 1/5th of 1%. So they did charge for refining. The 15% difference from the log book would also indicate that the 15% difference between weighed in, and payed out, will tell the story on the fineness for the particular mines pay out.