Help, no gold powder?

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Palladium

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Your processing is not the problem sir. It's your approach and attitude!
Refining is an art just like painting artwork is and directly reflects the mind set of the artist!
Picasso didn't become great from just the first painting.

Patience!
 

FrugalRefiner

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Hartbar said:
I get it Dave, teach a man to fish, and no, your not being a jerk.
I just don’t understand your position entirely?
I’ve heard on Forum, “tell us your plan and we will critique and advise”
I did that, cemented out. I’m now looking for advice and critique.
I’m told read the book.
I am half way through Hokes book, it’s 355 pages, I’m taking notes and will have to read twice I’m sure.
Hartbar, you're new to this. It's interesting and exciting. You started out without enough knowledge and made a bit of a mess. We advised you how to recover from the mess, and to put your chemicals away until you did more studying to proceed to the next step.

You say you want us to critique your plan, but you don't have a plan. Instead, you're asking us to give you the plan and tell you what to do next.

Yes, Hoke's book is long because there is much to learn. None of us have the time to rewrite it here on the forum. If I tell you to use AR next, will you know how to handle the next problem you have? If I say nitric should be next, will you know what to do after that?

If you wanted to learn to fly a plane, would you read half the book and then jump into the pilot's seat because the book was long and you really wanted to fly today?


If users ask which way to go at a point in the process, would you have them take a shot in the dark and make a serious mistake?
No, we'd rather they follow the advice they've been given and study until they understand how to proceed.


Maybe this is amusing to some on here?
No, it's not amusing at all. No one on the forum gets paid to help others. This is a 100% volunteer site. We all have lives and responsibilities outside the forum. So when we give someone advice, we expect them to follow it. When we tell someone to read Hoke's book, we expect them to do it, not just half of it.

If anyone else wants to give you step by step instructions, they're free to do it. But anyone who's been here long enough to give you sound advice has probably been down that road before. I have. And when I've tried to take someone under my wing and tutor them, it has come back to bite me. When I was new here, I used to feel that the old timers were too hard on new members. Why not just answer the newb's questions? After close to ten years and thousands of posts trying to help others, I've come to understand there was wisdom to their position.

At this point, you still think you've probably cemented both gold and silver out of your solution. That tells me you're not yet ready to take the next step and start adding acids to things again. I encourage you to read: Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?. It may help you to understand my position. I don't want you to be the next casualty because I gave you a quick answer to your simple question before you were prepared to understand it.

Dave
 

Palladium

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Sir is the problem you have is that you have finances tied up in this that you are trying to recover expediently?
I've been there!
 

Martijn

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FrugalRefiner said:
At this point, you still think you've probably cemented both gold and silver out of your solution. That tells me you're not yet ready to take the next step and start adding acids to things again. I encourage you to read: Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?. It may help you to understand my position. I don't want you to be the next casualty because I gave you a quick answer to your simple question before you were prepared to understand it.

Dave

So true..

And the answers to your questions are in the links and advice given in earlier threads. If that doesn't make sense yet, study, learn, take notes. Keep it simple. Many new members go looking for exotic groundbreaking new processes, and waste time and get lost in this jungle.
We use the different properties of metals to separate them. Knowledge of these properties is learning to crawl. Walking comes next..
Assuming you have and will follow our advise, and study first before diving in;
Study dealing with waste, and a hint: acquaintance tests (of silver) in Hoke' book.
Once you think you can start these tests, and have a plan, present it here first.
Be safe and enjoy!
Martijn.
 

Hartbar

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Palladium said:
Sir is the problem you have is that you have finances tied up in this that you are trying to recover expediently?
I've been there!

Yes, I’d like to recover the metal. However, it’s nothing in comparison to the losses suffered by users on this Forum in the last 48 hours if there holding precious metal, in solution or any other form. The shorts did well.

I’d like to thank anyone who has taken the time to respond on this thread, I’m kind of “say it like it is” to be honest, so have at it and let’s see what sticks.

My plan after messing up using the alternative ingredients was to cement with copper as advised on here. Re-refine using AR, denox if needed, filter, then precipitate with SMB. Check for gold in solution. Decant solution, rinse with hot water, rinse with HCL. Rinse with water some more. Decant again, then dry powder and melt into bead in ceramic dish previously glazed with borax.
I have processed karat gold as described above before.
I then thought about the silver that might be in solution? My original gold had some 18k, I believe high in silver, 25%? Also some 10k. I did not inquart the original gold. It was mentioned in this post that my problem was from passive silver?
I assumed that my silver was still in solution after dissolving the original metals in the foreign chemicals and that when I cement with copper to fix mess the silver would drop with the gold.
That is why I thought maybe go with nitric first.

Regards
 

FrugalRefiner

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Your plan is pretty sound.

There are some issues in your understanding of silver behavior.

Hartbar said:
I then thought about the silver that might be in solution?
Not likely. Silver is only minimally soluble in AR.


My original gold had some 18k, I believe high in silver, 25%? Also some 10k. I did not inquart the original gold. It was mentioned in this post that my problem was from passive silver?
When items having more that about 10% silver are put in AR, the gold begins to dissolve. The silver is converted to silver chloride and forms a coating on the item that slows and eventually stops the dissolution of the gold. That's why your items didn't dissolve completely. It wasn't that silver was going into solution. It was that the silver was becoming a hard crust of silver chloride still attached to the items.


I assumed that my silver was still in solution after dissolving the original metals in the foreign chemicals and that when I cement with copper to fix mess the silver would drop with the gold.
Nope. The silver never went into solution, except for that tiny amount I mentioned above.

Hartbar, these are all things that have been discussed extensively on the forum. Hoke's book is only a first step in learning this art. It will teach you the basics and the language of refining so you'll understand what you read on the forum. When you finish her book, start reading everything you can on the forum. We've only scratched the surface.

Dave
 

Palladium

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I didn't lose a penny today!
You only lose when you sell. I'll be holding mine for another day.

I had a client one time who seemed to always come up short on his gold totals. After some period of time i was ready to stop refining for him. I thought surely to god this man is thinking i'm stealing from him. When i told him how i felt about the situation he said " You don't understand "! He said, i'm retired and i take this paper money and i buy gold with it.The paper money is going down quicker than i can spend it with inflation. He said i know the numbers are going to come in short. Then he went on to explain, I'm in it for the long game. He said what you see as a loss today..... I see as a profit tomorrow!

He schooled a young refiner that day!
 

nickvc

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As to the price drops I suspect that the paper metal dealers are trying to force the price down as they are highly over sold and need physical due to the new rules forced on them, if the prices start to rise rapidly it’s going to be a bloodbath for them.
 

Palladium

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They are taking worthless paper and buying physical with it, that's why they are driving the price down.
Make no mistake they never plan on making delivery on those contracts. By this time next year this system of banking (Paper) will likely not exist! I'm already prepared. I've spent the better part of this year selling my physical assets, a couple of houses, cars, and some other stuff. With that i too have been buying silver out the wazoo! I have very little cash on hand, but plenty of food, water, and Freedom Crackers, i also built a steam engine charging system with a boiler and an 800 gallon salt water battery storage system to store the electricity. Prepare yourself people! One day here in the near future i predict even the GRF will cease to exist.
It's been great gentlemen and a wild ride knowing everyone. If i don't see you here..... I'll see you on the other side! May God bless us all!

Semper Fi !
 

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Palladium

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I sure hope everyone is prepared for the storm that's coming. I love watching these video's of my community and how people are taking back their country and advancing the cause. I just fear though that no one is really seeing this. I've tried to help people by educating them, but i've come to realize i don't think a lot of people are going to see the waves. My hearts heavy this morning as i watch Gods creations as the sun rises and i think back to the Star Spangled Banner. Yep.... Old Glory is still waving out here! Gods still in charge! I watch as the kido's go back to school and i think of the 6 i have raised. I think of the people God has brought into my life and especially those he has removed. I think about the choices i have made that has lead to this one particular moment in time. How many rights and how many lefts did it take to get me here. I think about the jobs i have had, the businesses i have owned and all the pretty things that i thought really mattered in life. BOY! did i get that one wrong! I've been a Millionaire and i've slept under a bridge a time or too. Had it all, lost it all, gave it all away..... Those things don't matter. What matters is your humanity and the humanity of others.

As you go about this day thank your creator for the REAL gifts we have been giving and the privilege of his grace. Those who really know me knows that my time was up a longgggg time ago. It's only by his grace that i still serve a purpose and walk this Earth. I've spent my whole life defending Freedom and Liberty, not for myself, but for the future children and grandchildren yet to come. I've seen the lands as they are laid to waste, Hell i even helped a time or two! There is a darkness on the horizon, but a glorious day on the horizon after that! There will be prosperity and a respect for life we have not seen in this world for sometime. It will be a new day as well as a new time for all of humanity. Keep your faith in God and country for America has yet to see it's demise. One more day, one more prayer, another chance to correct OUR mistakes!
God bless us all and Semper Fi!
 

Palladium

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I can respect that, but if you will notice it donates no religion only the basis of a creator.
If we can't use the word god or creator we are in bad shape.
Even the metals and the science we use here is based on a creator. If you believe in science and we are men of science then to deny the existence of a creator would be to deny science it's self! Science and the rules that govern it proves the existence of a creator or being.

My opinion of course!
 

Hartbar

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Still diligently reading Hokes book. Cementing went well and on hold for now.
The solids that did not dissolve, I believe there covered in silver oxide, should I inquart them to 6k?
My plan would be to use nitric, rinse then refine with AR.
 

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Palladium

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They look pretty thin now. Put them in a beaker. Cover them with concentrated acid (AR). Take a stir rod and poke them breaking up the crust a little bit. It will let the solution in to attack the next layer of gold. Treat it like an onion with layers. You are going to put it on a light rolling boil. Heat equals rate of attack and penetration dept. After about an hour remove the watch glass and poke again with a rod to break the crust up. Repeat until all material is consumed. Save residues in separate container for later processing in silver cell. Trace gold and other metals will carry over with the silver.
 

Palladium

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Let me answer your other question to. If you were to melt that for inquarting at this stage there is gold chloride trapped in those resides that will vap off and you will lose it losing gold in the process. Also you would lose the silver that is a chloride.
 

Hartbar

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Thanks PD, I appreciate your time and advice.
Some of the solids took on a kind of charcoal feel, almost wants to crumble when you touch it?
Hope there’s some gold left in them.

Regards
 

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