Introduction

[BAGross85]

My name is Brent, I’m a manager of a small junkyard in MO. I grew up in the cat converter trade, working for a core buyer. I have one goal: recover enough PGM’s from converters that will allow me to cut out the middlemen from junkyard to refiner.

I bought a copy of CM Hoke’s book, and am preparing to memorize it. Help me though:

Will Hoke’s methods, if followed, recover the PGM’s for converters? I need to recover around 95%. (I have training in Chemistry, as well as Biology, so I’m acquainted with safety and lab rules).

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Short answer, probably not. Catalytic converters didn't exist when she wrote her book.

Your first task would be to recover the PGMs from the converters. Recovering 95% is a very tall task.

Keep in mind that PGMs in solution or as dried salts are very toxic.

Dave

 

[BAGross85]

Short answer, probably not. Catalytic converters didn't exist when she wrote her book.

Your first task would be to recover the PGMs from the converters. Recovering 95% is a very tall task.

Keep in mind that PGMs in solution or as dried salts are very toxic.

Dave

I am aware of the safety concerns, and this prepared to handle them.

I’m also aware of one very unique concept, that converters are a mixture of PGMs that are in the nanoparticle form. Therefore, even the greatest filtration masks will not truly protect against their hazards. Upon figuring out the successful process, I will design a series of mechanisms that I can effectively control from a distance, using the Mindstorms software and Lego hardware from my youth (seriously, I’m not joking).

In addition, since the material exists in such a small state, the chlorides will experience photocatalysis almost immediately upon exposure to wavelengths of light under 800nm, therefore salt precipitation methods will not be successful in a solution that’s been/currently is being exposed to the visible light spectrum.

The wall I’ve run into is this: how do I cause the nanoparticles to enter into a colloidal state? I believe I could process the material from that point forward, using Hoke’s methods. I keep running into major paywalls (usually around $250 apiece) with every online document that addresses these issues. I figured maybe someone here would have some answers, before I ponied up and started purchasing them.

 

[4metals]

Your best option is to decan, crush and sift the cats to powder and blend them before shipment to a smelter in Europe. Hensel Recycling, formerly Duesmann Hensel, has a sampling facility in the US just outside of Philly. They can blend and sample all of your prepared powders there and you can take a sample for assay. The powders will be shipped to Germany where they have a plasma smelter.

 

[4metals]

These are high end decanning production machines with efficient dust control.

 

[BAGross85]

Your best option is to decan, crush and sift the cats to powder and blend them before shipment to a smelter in Europe. Hensel Recycling, formerly Duesmann Hensel, has a sampling facility in the US just outside of Philly. They can blend and sample all of your prepared powders there and you can take a sample for assay. The powders will be shipped to Germany where they have a plasma smelter.

Hoke would disagree with you. The spirit of the book, is for small businesses to refine their own product, since at that time, only a select number of refiners were available for platinum.

I want to cut out all of the middlemen from the core buyer, to the guy who buys from the core buyer, to the man who decans the products—-and walk into the Maller’s building in Chicago with purified metals.

I collect ID’s on all people I purchase vehicles or scrap converters from, and operate from a staunch legal stance. I know some of my competitors have a serious advantage over me, because they purchase stolen converters: my hope is that by effort and ingenuity, I can gain the upper hand in this market, defeating the cheaters and theives.

I’ve compared the prices of converters to the fluctuations of the spot price of metals in the market, as well as used AI to determine the amount of precious metals initially in each converter.

Many times, people state “just send them somewhere else”.

No. We are being ripped off. At times, I have only received 35% of the spot value of metals contained within the converters. I know this, because of the fluctuations in the market vs. the fluctuations in the prices of the converters from the buyers. I would be satisfied with a 90% payment on the value of what I have, and I don’t want to trust another man to refine the raw material.

 

[4metals]

I have been around the block with refining and in todays environment in the US the permitting process as well as dealing with the waste can be daunting. And that is before you have to sell your refined metals after you purify them. In a decanning setup you start with a decanning machine and a ball mill and a sifter. Now you have powder and scrap steel cans. The powder is blended while you watch and sample accurately. There are many decent labs in the US to assay your cat powder sample from the blending. All lots are sampled with an umpire sample sealed up for use if needed so agreement between your assay result and theirs is needed or the umpire is used. You will be paid for whatever is in there. Worth an inquiry about their rates.

In the end you have no airborne waste to scrub, no refining residues to deal with, and no waste acids to treat or have hauled.

In reality if you are any decent sized operation you need to prepare the material before digestion anyway so this preliminary process is needed anyway. Maybe, in the future you will decide to try the chemical route. But having the experience of accurate sampling and assaying will give you a good base line to determine yields and costs.

Proper sampling and dealing directly with the end smelter is as close to cutting out the middleman as you can get.

From the perspective of a chemist the process of chemical extraction has some appeal personally, but the practicality of it, which has been enhanced by years of experience, would steer me to the sampling and plasma smelter. But I have no horse in this race, simply adding my 2¢.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[BAGross85]

Your best option is to decan, crush and sift the cats to powder and blend them before shipment to a smelter in Europe. Hensel Recycling, formerly Duesmann Hensel, has a sampling facility in the US just outside of Philly. They can blend and sample all of your prepared powders there and you can take a sample for assay. The powders will be shipped to Germany where they have a plasma smelter.

I can build a plasma smelter with a large convex mirror, albeit not as efficient or precise as the multi-million dollar equipment others possess

I just have to work out some logistics. I would prefer to do this process via the hydrometallurgical route, without involving alcohol

I have been around the block with refining and in todays environment in the US the permitting process as well as dealing with the waste can be daunting. And that is before you have to sell your refined metals after you purify them. In a decanning setup you start with a decanning machine and a ball mill and a sifter. Now you have powder and scrap steel cans. The powder is blended while you watch and sample accurately. There are many decent labs in the US to assay your cat powder sample from the blending. All lots are sampled with an umpire sample sealed up for use if needed so agreement between your assay result and theirs is needed or the umpire is used. You will be paid for whatever is in there. Worth an inquiry about their rates.

In the end you have no airborne waste to scrub, no refining residues to deal with, and no waste acids to treat or have hauled.

In reality if you are any decent sized operation you need to prepare the material before digestion anyway so this preliminary process is needed anyway. Maybe, in the future you will decide to try the chemical route. But having the experience of accurate sampling and assaying will give you a good base line to determine yields and costs.

Proper sampling and dealing directly with the end smelter is as close to cutting out the middleman as you can get.

From the perspective of a chemist the process of chemical extraction has some appeal personally, but the practicality of it, which has been enhanced by years of experience, would steer me to the sampling and plasma smelter. But I have no horse in this race, simply adding my 2¢.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Thank you. I appreciate your insight.

However, this isn’t *strictly for profit.

There’s a certain level of personal curiosity and endeavoring hardship to achieve success to this.

I want to break the stigma, that this cannot be done by an average person. As far as waste goes, I want to retain the aluminum oxide ceramic, because eventually I want to make emeralds and rubies from it. That’ll be my retirement projects in my later years .

In my teens, I played around with attempting to refine converters. I accidentally left solutions in a freezer, with it on, overnight (it was my storage container) and I accidentally produced a bunch of crazy, triangular shaped crystals from a solution that I had failed to precipitate salts from. The only reason I had the freezer was to keep my ice cold that I’d been saving for rapidly cooling solutions. Even crazier, the crystals melted almost immediately upon exposure to sunlight!

I furthermore discovered the effects of light on nanoparticles of platinum, when studying cancer and rheumatoid arthritis drugs (cisplatin and sulfasalazine). Both drugs come with patient teaching to stay out of the sunlight because of its photogenic effects, and both drugs come in dark colored bottles, needing to be stored in dark compartments when not in use.

So I headed down the rabbit hole, and discovered there’s an entire field of photochemistry that I had absolutely no idea existed. I’m highly intrigued, and really do believe that herein lies the answers to the problems I encountered almost a decade ago, when I failed to refine the metals from the converters in my teens.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I can build a plasma smelter with a large convex mirror, albeit not as efficient or precise as the multi-million dollar equipment others possess

I just have to work out some logistics. I would prefer to do this process via the hydrometallurgical route, without involving alcohol

Thank you. I appreciate your insight.

However, this isn’t *strictly for profit.

There’s a certain level of personal curiosity and endeavoring hardship to achieve success to this.

I want to break the stigma, that this cannot be done by an average person. As far as waste goes, I want to retain the aluminum oxide ceramic, because eventually I want to make emeralds and rubies from it. That’ll be my retirement projects in my later years .

In my teens, I played around with attempting to refine converters. I accidentally left solutions in a freezer, with it on, overnight (it was my storage container) and I accidentally produced a bunch of crazy, triangular shaped crystals from a solution that I had failed to precipitate salts from. The only reason I had the freezer was to keep my ice cold that I’d been saving for rapidly cooling solutions. Even crazier, the crystals melted almost immediately upon exposure to sunlight!

I furthermore discovered the effects of light on nanoparticles of platinum, when studying cancer and rheumatoid arthritis drugs (cisplatin and sulfasalazine). Both drugs come with patient teaching to stay out of the sunlight because of its photogenic effects, and both drugs come in dark colored bottles, needing to be stored in dark compartments when not in use.

So I headed down the rabbit hole, and discovered there’s an entire field of photochemistry that I had absolutely no idea existed. I’m highly intrigued, and really do believe that herein lies the answers to the problems I encountered almost a decade ago, when I failed to refine the metals from the converters in my teens.

I think you have misunderstood the plasma arc furnace concept, there is no need of a mirror in them.
Here is links to research gate:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Schematic-diagram-of-plasma-arc-furnace_fig1_329900128

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ur-Westinghouse-plasma-torches_fig5_200702806

 

[Yggdrasil]

I have been around the block with refining and in todays environment in the US the permitting process as well as dealing with the waste can be daunting. And that is before you have to sell your refined metals after you purify them. In a decanning setup you start with a decanning machine and a ball mill and a sifter. Now you have powder and scrap steel cans. The powder is blended while you watch and sample accurately. There are many decent labs in the US to assay your cat powder sample from the blending. All lots are sampled with an umpire sample sealed up for use if needed so agreement between your assay result and theirs is needed or the umpire is used. You will be paid for whatever is in there. Worth an inquiry about their rates.

In the end you have no airborne waste to scrub, no refining residues to deal with, and no waste acids to treat or have hauled.

In reality if you are any decent sized operation you need to prepare the material before digestion anyway so this preliminary process is needed anyway. Maybe, in the future you will decide to try the chemical route. But having the experience of accurate sampling and assaying will give you a good base line to determine yields and costs.

Proper sampling and dealing directly with the end smelter is as close to cutting out the middleman as you can get.

From the perspective of a chemist the process of chemical extraction has some appeal personally, but the practicality of it, which has been enhanced by years of experience, would steer me to the sampling and plasma smelter. But I have no horse in this race, simply adding my 2¢.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

Just a question.
Do you know if they use flux in the smelting of Cat material?

The concept of these large plasma arc furnaces is quite interesting.
They should be quite suitable for e-waste, continous feed pyrolyzing and smelting.

 

[anachronism]

Proper sampling and dealing directly with the end smelter is as close to cutting out the middleman as you can get.

Exactly. One of my friends runs one of the UK's larger Cat companies. they take the products through full lab work, sampling and processing right up the point of smelting and then send to a plant in Italy to do that.

Their approach is that they don't see the benefit of the necessary spend to build a compliant smelter outweighing the small percentage they pass to the refinery. The key here is knowing exactly what you are sending, and being able to prove that beyond reasonable dispute.

 

[Agglomeration]

This is a DANGEROUS topic.

You are advised to walk away from this. You’re better off sending your product into someone who knows better. Don’t risk yours or your family’s life over money.

Platinosis is bad.

Ok and the people involved with this, are the people that when you were a child, your mother told you at night to be afraid of. It’s just a bad idea.

There are no precious metals inside catalydic converters, regardless of what your AI says.

Edited in by moderator
Maybe catalydic converters have no PM's but catalytic converters do!

 

[Yggdrasil]

This is a DANGEROUS topic.

You are advised to walk away from this. You’re better off sending your product into someone who knows better. Don’t risk yours or your family’s life over money.

Platinosis is bad.

Ok and the people involved with this, are the people that when you were a child, your mother told you at night to be afraid of. It’s just a bad idea.

There are no precious metals inside catalydic converters, regardless of what your AI says.

You are wrong about that, but it is not easy get hold of them.
They contain Platinum, Palladium and/or Rhodium depending on type.

First as you say, if you dissolve them they are very toxic and your probably not able to get out more then 80 + percent of the values.
Additionally creating massive amount of toxic waste.
Sending it to the big processors will be the most profitable and sane way to treat it.

 

[Agglomeration]

You are wrong about that, but it is not easy get hold of them.
They contain Platinum, Palladium and/or Rhodium depending on type.

First as you say, if you dissolve them they are very toxic and your probably not able to get out more then 80 + percent of the values.
Additionally creating massive amount of toxic waste.
Sending it to the big processors will be the most profitable and sane way to treat it.

The author makes statements that are not appropriate for a hobby listing forum like this. There is danger in what he says.

Curiosity killed the cat. He is better off to let one of the established refiners process his materials.

They have scientists with trained bodyguards. He does not.

 

[Yggdrasil]

The author makes statements that are not appropriate for a hobby listing forum like this. There is danger in what he says.

Curiosity killed the cat. He is better off to let one of the established refiners process his materials.

They have scientists with trained bodyguards. He does not.

That is partly correct, the dangers are in the chemistry though, and no bodyguard can fix that.

 

[nickvc]

The major problem with using chemical processes on cats is that the solution retained in the powders is more than the percentage that the large refiners charge combine that with chemical costs set up costs and the highly toxic solutions and waste I would seriously rethink your plans, bear in mind there is no safe amount of exposure to PGM salts so in this case curiosity can really kill you.

 

[Agglomeration]

That is partly correct, the dangers are in the chemistry though, and no bodyguard can fix that.

I repeat.

This is not a topic for a hobbyist. Chemistry has dangers, yes. People who have business interests, are more dangerous.

Do not mess with catalytic converters. You must be chosen for it…you must not choose it.

Stick to scraps and solids. Platinosis is quite deadly.

 

[Agglomeration]

The major problem with using chemical processes on cats is that the solution retained in the powders is more than the percentage that the large refiners charge combine that with chemical costs set up costs and the highly toxic solutions and waste I would seriously rethink your plans, bear in mind there is no safe amount of exposure to PGM salts so in this case curiosity can really kill you.

that’s diversionary.

Highly successful refiners are able to produce their own acids from scratch. HCL from saltwater. Nitric from air.

I say there’s profit in metals. Yes.

But no man will profit off converters for long. These must be avoided. Getting caught with them with police and arrested may turn out to be the best case scenario for person.

Run. Don’t be another body.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I repeat.

This is not a topic for a hobbyist. Chemistry has dangers, yes. People who have business interests, are more dangerous.

Do not mess with catalytic converters. You must be chosen for it…you must not choose it.

Stick to scraps and solids. Platinosis is quite deadly.

Where in the world do you live?
For most of the world the chemical/biological interactions are the only danger!
Where business people are the danger all business are dangerous including selling hot dags.

 

[Yggdrasil]

that’s diversionary.

Highly successful refiners are able to produce their own acids from scratch. HCL from saltwater. Nitric from air.

I say there’s profit in metals. Yes.

But no man will profit off converters for long. These must be avoided. Getting caught with them with police and arrested may turn out to be the best case scenario for person.

Run. Don’t be another body.

Seriously man, you need to get back to planet earth.

No serious refiner has the time nor energy to create their own acids and even less the economy.
For anyone half serious it is cheaper to buy at least HCl.
Nitric may be a different story.