Left holding the bucket...

[Nervin]

As the Subject states this is a literal statement. After a friend of mine decided he was going to go ahead and make an attempt at refining he had a panic moment and has now left a decision to me.

So the story goes like this. In Hokes book it state a method for containing fumes is to put your container in a bucket with water at the bottom and an inverted bucket over that. This either seals the fumes in or pass through the water... set up to do a 50/50 nitric for base metals and rubber banded a ziplock over the beaker and a watch glass on top of that so he thought it would buy him enough time to get the rest ready. According to him it didn't take long before the fumes started rolling out of the bucket and he panicked and sealed it up with a locking lid for a five gallon bucket. It scared him enough that he refuses to open the bucket for fear of releasing a huge cloud of fumes. Personally I am small scale and use the same water and inverted bucket but never have panicked and sealed on up. He was dissolving a few pent pros so I traded him some for the bucket...

So here is my question and I know I am going to catch flack but if I am ever unsure it's better to ask advice than pay a price. If I open this bucket will a huge cloud of NO2 come floating out? I don't have a hood yet (I use the inverted bucket version--while not excellent I have yet to have clouds of Vapors and no dead animals). I do have to be careful because of the neighbors critters and am prepared to go to the middle of nowhere (not far from where I live), but if it's safe to open up and finish it I would prefer... It's ben in there for a week in 40 degree temps.

 

[necromancer]

grab a nail with a long set of pliers, heat up the nail & stick the nail through the top of the bucket.

do this outdoors & wearing safety glasses, if you like put a few layers of plastic film (garbage bags) over the bucket to keep any sputtering down to a minimum.

 

[Nervin]

Ahhhh so I take it the fumes will all be in there and not settled?

 

[necromancer]

by making a small hole it will keep you from getting any type of BRC in your face, if the bucket is under pressure.

BRC = Big Red Cloud

 

[Nervin]

Ahhhh ok... I will definitely try it tomorrow... At least one of the steps is already done... thanks for the response...

 

[goldenchild]

Not flaming here but it sounds like you are refining in an environment you really shouldn't be. Many of us small refiners do everything right outside without worry of fumes hurting anyone. If you are worried about the affects on your surroundings for a small amount of fumes coming from a small bucket maybe you should rethink your refining location.

 

[g_axelsson]

Just push on the bucket and you should be able to judge if there is a pressure in it or not. At least the lid should show signs of bulging if you have any pressure built up. But for safety, make a small hole first.

Göran

 

[Nervin]

I know it's taken me a while to reply to this but it has been interesting. There is no positive pressure on the bucket at all.

FullSizeRender by naymond.ervin, on Flickr

Oddly enough the BRC is very thick in there. I lifted the lid a little and after sucking in a substantial amount of air a stream shot out like a smoke marker. I closed it and have decided to go ahead and start planning and building a shed with a hood and scrubber system before I do anymore refining.

As far as where I am at I am out in the country and have 1 ½ acre yard I am just overly cautious when it comes to stuff like this. I have been working in very small batches with small bucket scrubbers outside and never had any problem. As far as this nice little puzzle my amigo created I will be taking it to my old college and use their hood to get this thing opened. Heheheh Needless to say he won't be refining anymore that incident scared him so he is giving me his stuff and selling me his scrap... Looks like I will be spending a lot of time in the equipment thread... already look through the one about building a new shed...

 

[necromancer]

very good. always remember the safety factor.
even breathing in very small amounts is bad, if you can't taste it or smell it, it's going to harm you & will rot your teeth away at the least

enjoy the new hobby. because any hobby that pays back is a good hobby !!

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

You can absorb a good amount of the NOx gas produced by the method you are talking about, however there are better ways to do something similar without running the risk of all the issues you will have with plastic buckets.

I would suggest purchasing some lab glass.

For example, you could purchase a flask or reaction vessel like this:

And then another like this:

The first image, the lab flask is where the reaction takes place.

The second you would fill with activated carbon almost to the top. Then placing a piece of PH paper on the top of the carbon. The reason for the PH paper is that you will be able to tell when the activated carbon is loaded, and requires replacement. You can tell visually when the paper turns a different color.

I would suggest if you use this method, you do so in a well ventilated area, like outside, so that once the carbon is loaded and no longer filtering the NOx gas, it will not vent inside a location that could cause harm to people, or metal surfaces.

Hoke does a good job describing simply the process you are attempting to employ, but using glass as it is rigid and does much better when there are pressure changes. I would never suggest doing any reaction in an enclosed environment. You need some sort of venting to prevent problems that could end in disaster.

Scott

 

[CBentre]

Welcome back Scott, excellent suggestions.

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

Welcome back Scott, excellent suggestions.

Thank you Sir

Scott

 

[Nervin]

I actually have those... plus 5 pounds of coconut carbon...

I think some are getting the impression that I actually sealed that bucket up.. I promise that wasn't my mistake... I had already learned a similar lesson in the Navy. Not the same chemicals or anything but it was a compound that we had to create and it needed to be slowly vented and neutralized in separate containments before it could be released. I had made the mistake of sealing the container instead of having the venting chambers set up and was stuck in a similar situation. So my supervisor and I had to suit up and take care of it before it got worse. I definitely got made fun of over that... Before I even started thinking of refining I read and researched on ways to refine without a fume hood in hopes to do small amounts until I had enough to either get a fume hood or build a safe place and way to refine in larger quantities. My friend new what I was doing because I knew he had access to Escrap and asked him if he could get ahold of CPUs and stuff. When he asked why I explained it to him and then suddenly he was asking more and more questions so I gave him a copy of Hokes books and explained to him that he needs to read it first and foremost and to also sign up here and get as much info as his brain could stand before he even bought a chemistry set. Needless to say it seems like he only heard "Read this book and get a chemistry set"... So on his first time this was the result--he panicked when he saw the fumes escape the beaker and just sealed it up without using the lid he made to connect to his little bucket scrubbers.. The bucket system I use (Although very rudimentary) works fairly well. I have two holes in the initial bucket One with a oneway valve so that air can enter and vapors stay in the system... and then of course the other hole is a pipe that goes to the next bucket and so forth. One of the biggest problems I have is that my neighbors can see me out in the yard all decked out in Coveralls, Chemical gloves, respirators and beakers and what not and so they start asking questions... or (this happened two months ago) just walk on over to talk to me with out any gear on and fumes are in the air. So now I am going to bite the bullet and build a shed like Philddreamer did... http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=18481

After looking through the post I really liked the idea plus instead of having to buy a FULL fume hood I liked his idea where the intake is directly over the reaction vessel to me that would eliminate the need for a huge blower and the CFM could be decreased as well.... But alas I am still doing research and designing... especially the scrubber set up. If I have a set up like that then I can just go into the building and not have to worry about having the police called on me because something thinks I am making meth or something... Which by the way the neighbor that walked up to talk to me actually thought I was doing... No kidding... he was really grilling me on what was in the beakers and why I was wearing chemical protection gear... I essentially told him that because I was retired at 40 I was board all the time and I like chemistry and just try out nifty experiments I find on line...

I definitely appreciate everyones suggestions though... Believe it or not the apparatus with carbon gave me an idea for the scrubber system and although I haven't read it I am sure it's been mentioned here before... that's to have a carbon filter at the end so that the %80 scrubbing can be increased a little more... The next thing would be to make sure everything was inaccessible to my kids... Lock down big time... including the scrubber tubes and pipes although for those I might do the opposite of Phildddreamer and put mine inside.