New Anode Bag Configuration

[Barren Realms 007]

No, I do not expect the filter to catch palladium in solution.

I am simply reporting the results I got from using these new anode bags.

Something in the cell parameters changed when these new bags were put in the cells.

What parameter change occured - I do not know.

What I do know is that the silver, which was supposed to be pure, was contaminated with palladium - you could see the crystals were darker in places - not bright white as usual.

The test I performed confirmed the presence of palladium (at least as far as I could tell).

The "thumbs down" rating I gave to the performance of these anode bags is based solely on the results I got when I used them.

Hope this answers your question - kadriver

What other test did you performe besides just looking at the color of your solution in the test tube? If this is the only test you did you can be inaccurate about your assumption.

 

[Oz]

Given the small pore size in this test bag I can see the possibility of the bag itself being conductive but not allowing the electrolyte to flow freely enough through the cloth. This could have resulted in a localized depletion of silver in solution at the cathode causing the palladium to co-deposit. This can also happen when there is too much gold or other contaminates in your anode that slow up the silver from going into solution but remain conductive.

It seems unlikely that this is a problem with particulates (slimes) finding their way through the cloth given the 5 micron pore size.

 

[maltfoudy]

has anyone ever thought about milk surge filters???


http://www.fsbagfilter.com/TechnicalData.htm

 

[kadriver]

What other test did you performe besides just looking at the color of your solution in the test tube? If this is the only test you did you can be inaccurate about your assumption.

Barren:

Thanks for pointing that out, I performed two tests:

test #1. Visual discoloration of the silver crystals in the cell (also, the electrolyte had turned a pale yellow color).

test #2. Yellow color of the dissolved sample in the test tube.

I should have performed this third test right away, but didn't:

test #3. Add some DMG test solution to confirm presence of palladium.

I still have the dissolved solution in the test tube at my shop. I will put a few drops of DMG test solution in the test tube and see what result I get.

If palladium is present, then I should get a precipitate when DMG is added.

kadriver

 

[kadriver]

Given the small pore size in this test bag I can see the possibility of the bag itself being conductive but not allowing the electrolyte to flow freely enough through the cloth.

Oz:

I kept looking for the stream coming down from under the anode basket, but I never did see it.

The stream I am talking about looks like a waterfall streaming down from under the basket.

I think these anode bags were too restrictive causing the effect you mentioned of silver depletion, which in turn caused co-depositing of PGMs

With the old flter configuration, I could see "waterfall" start almost immediately after adding voltage, with silver beginning to deposit almost as fast on the cathode.

With the new bags, the silver did not start to deposit on the cathode for several hours. And I never did see a definite "waterfall" coming from the bottom of the anode basket with the new bags installed.

I think I am going to look into getting some muslin cloth.

I haven't sold a silver bar in almost a month - I sold some cemented silver to the refiner yesterday (NTR - newly opened branch office here). 189 grams. I needed the cash (I also sold him a pure gold bar - 1.09 troy ounces) He gave me 90% of spot for the silver and 98% of spot for the gold.

He shot the cemented silver with an XRF and said it contained .04 of one percent palladium. The silver was cemented silver from inquarting gold that I had cemented seperately. He also shot my gold bar and said it was 999 fine!

I now cement my silver used for inquarting gold seperately as it contains PGMs that can contribute to my silver cell contamination.

I will, from now on, use sterling and 925 silver for my silver cell (I know these also contain PGMS, but in much less concentration than silver used for inquarting).

kadriver

 

[Palladium]

I ask the question about the micron size because I was wondering if that could have been the problem. In the Shor cell a Semi permeable membrane is used to control the migration of different size ions. In the shor cell that is a .5 micron barrier which will block the larger ions such as gold, copper, palladium, and such from crossing the barrier and depositing on the cathode. When ions pass thru a material they must have a channel in which to migrate through. Much like bottlenecking a major highway system from 5 lanes down to one lane. I think the word for it is membrane potential. I don’t know what the ion sizes in a silver cell are I know they are dependant on the radii size of the ions but then when they from complex ions the size increases even more. An example would be the size of the cl ion verses the size of an aucl4 ion. I’m wondering if the difference in your cell production can be related to the thickness in the material used for the anode bags. The thinner bags you have been using allows for quicker ion transport across the membrane. The new material you’re trying is thicker and seems to limit that transport. Another thing is the voltage potential across the membrane you are getting from the power supply you are using may just be causing palladium to deposit because of the shortage of silver at the cathode and its depositing palladium with the silver. If you had a variable power supply it would be interesting to leave the current the same but trim the voltage just to see if the overvoltage combined with the restrictive properties of the membrane can be balanced to see if that is the problem. I would say try a 5 micron size but in a thinner material. I’m not sure how all this works but I hope my rambling might give you a starting point.

 

[MysticColby]

The waterfall stream you described - I see it all the time at work. It's caused by a liquid of one density entering/mixing with a liquid of a different density (for example: add salt water to pure water). looks similar to heat waves coming off the hood of a car when it's scorching outside, only upside down. For a silver cell, maybe it's different densities of silver nitrate mixing together (high inside the bag, low outside the bag)?

I've heard muslin cloth recommended before. I purchased some, but it looks like the holes through it are kinda big (like a needle would go through it without stretching a thread to the side). what thread count is sufficient for anode bags? and I'm guessing multiple bags is recommended.

*I edited out the assumptions I made that made it seem like I know more than I do*

 

[Palladium]

I've heard muslin cloth recommended before. I purchased some, but it looks like the holes through it are kinda big (like a needle would go through it without stretching a thread to the side). what thread count is sufficient for anode bags?

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=7030#p63113

 

[Palladium]

Hummmm....
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=unbleached+muslin+tea+bags&_frs=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m359

 

[kadriver]

Mystic - that is a perfect description of the waterfall that I see.

It looks like a heat mirrage, only inverted. I never seen it with the thicker, 5 micron bags installed.

I have been getting excellent results using the wet/dry vacuum cleaner bags I bought from Lowes.

The Lowes bags are made of a white nylon/polyester looking fabric. It appears to be a synthetic material.

I don't know what the material is, but I do know the bags makes some beautiful crystals form in my cells.

After trying those new bags and getting some contaminated silver, I now have a new appreciation for the vacuum cleaner bags - even though it takes about two hours to prepare them!

kadriver

 

[MysticColby]

He shot the cemented silver with an XRF and said it contained .04 of one percent palladium.

"0.04 of 1%", does that mean 0.04%? so 99.96% silver (assuming that's the only contaminant)?

Thanks, palladium.
I had purchased two different size muslin cloths: 67 thread per inch and 160 thread per inch. They looked identical. could be they made a mistake with the 160 one, sending me a 67 instead. I think I'll try a difference source

 

[Palladium]

Kadriver, could you post the name of them bags so i can do some research?

 

[MysticColby]

So, what I take away from this so far (correct me if I'm wrong) is that 5 micron is too small, but not by much.
Did you try that 9 oz polynap with 12 microns material?

Maybe I should give something like this a try?: http://www.ebay.com/itm/190540267355
they also have 25 micron sizes... if 10 doesn't allow enough liquid flow.
Some reshaping would be needed, of course.
(anodeproducts.com lists polypropylene as a good material for anode bags, which is why I searched for it - eBay hasn't heard of polynap, so few have)

 

[kadriver]

here is some pictures I just shot with the Lowes vacuum cleaner bags as filters.

NTR gave me 99.9% purity on the cemented silver, then said there was .04 of one percent palladium - so I guess that means 99.96% pure.

All these numbers are confusing sometimes.

Palladium, picture of the vacuum cleaner bags coming up.

 

[kadriver]

Palladium:

Here is a picture of the vacuum cleaner bags I use to manufacture anode bags and get excellent results.

kadriver

 

[MysticColby]

I like how kadriver seems to be the measure of how stuff should be done ^_^
Only thing I could find on that filter is that it's made of Dacron:
Dacron Cloth Filter - shop-vaccom
"Sailcloth is typically made from PET fibers also known as polyester or under the brand name Dacron" - wikipedia
"Polyethylene terephthalate (sometimes written poly(ethylene terephthalate)), commonly abbreviated PET, PETE, or the obsolete PETP or PET-P, is a thermoplastic polymer resin of the polyester family and is used in synthetic fibers" - wikipedia

 

[Acid_Bath76]

Dudadiesel.com has some pretty neat bags that I've used for filtering all sorts of acidic solutions. Some of the stuff he sells is pricey, but you might find something affordable that works better than your current setup.. or better yet... brings an idea to mind.

 

[kadriver]

Dacron Cloth - I wish I could find a yard of it instead of having to cut nearly 2000 individual stitches with a razor blade to make these 90115 shop vac bags fit into the little basket I use.

I use my reading glasses and a head visor magnifier and carefully cut each individual stitch with a sharp razor blade. I have to use a new razor blade after cutting about 500 stitches because the blade starts to dull after cutting that many stitches - both sides of the balde.

It literally takes me two hours to cut the stitches to remove the rubber retainer and disassemble the bag so I can get a nice flat piece to work with. All the while being careful not to snag a fiber with the blade and cause a thread to displace creating a spot for leakage of solids into the cell.

I use double layer for each anode basket for two bag protection against solids getting into the pure silver crystals. So far this is the best material I have found to produce excellent silver crystals in my silver cells.

kadriver

 

[kadriver]

Unbelieveable - could this be what I am looking for?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sail-Cloth-60-5-5oz-White-Dacron-Polyester-5-yards-/260916549140?pt=US_Fabric&hash=item3cbfd69614

If this is the same material as the shop vac bags, then I could almost eat my shorts.

It is called "sail material" and only $25 for 5 yards. I wonder if this material is sold at a fabric shop?

Mystic - thank you for finding out about this dacron material!

I'll take a sample with me tomorrow and start checking fabric shops.

kadriver

 

[element47]

I'll take a sample with me tomorrow and start checking fabric shops.

If you can find a sailmaker (for sailboats, duh) anywhere around you I am sure you can get small scraps of sail material for free or almost free. You live near the ocean or near water? Not all of it will be white, but most of it will be.