Barren Realms 007
In Remembrance
Yes but you are not supposed to use electrical conduit for applications like this.
New fume scrubber design
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rbramsey
Well-known member
Yes, but pressure wouldn't much of a consideration at that point. I know where I seen sch40 PVC also, is at chicken houses. They are used in the feed system. This is also 2-1/2". I can double-check in a little while. I have some at home.
Richard
Richard
This one would make nitric to a limited extent as the flow through the unit is quite high. To make nitric there is no draw on the scrubber either from a blower or an eductor. The flow comes from the oxygen flow which pressurizes the vessel the reaction is taking place in and forces it into the scrubbing chamber and out the top. The flow is slower but it is an enclosed system, sealed from the reactor to the outlet of the scrubber. So this is not in the Big Johnston class of scrubber.
Barren Realms 007
In Remembrance
rbramsey said:
Yea that is for the screw conveyor but if I remember right that is thinwall pipe specificly for that application. Use to have one in our finishing house on the hog farm.
rbramsey
Well-known member
You are correct. I forgot about that.
Richard
Richard
rbramsey
Well-known member
$800.00 is too much for me to buy, but I think I can make one. It might not as efficient, but doable. I have built other venturi jets for our dredge with some good results in the past. I would make this out of PVC. I think by taking some off the shelf parts (sweep and bushings) and welding the plastic, I could pull this off.
I need some help. I am still trying to get my head wrapped around the eductor specs. Using the specs from McMasters
http://www.mcmaster.com/#eductors/=azj1bb
they list several types of eductors with ratings. They list liquid operated/liquid suction, steam operated/liquid suction, and steam operated/gas suction. How would I convert the parameters for a liquid operated/gas suction eductor to figure 10 cfm suction. From the charts, I see that I would assume atmospheric pressure in refining use, but I would need to know what the inlet pressure needs to be? Can someone help me with the formulas?
Richard
I need some help. I am still trying to get my head wrapped around the eductor specs. Using the specs from McMasters
http://www.mcmaster.com/#eductors/=azj1bb
they list several types of eductors with ratings. They list liquid operated/liquid suction, steam operated/liquid suction, and steam operated/gas suction. How would I convert the parameters for a liquid operated/gas suction eductor to figure 10 cfm suction. From the charts, I see that I would assume atmospheric pressure in refining use, but I would need to know what the inlet pressure needs to be? Can someone help me with the formulas?
Richard
I am trying to understand this concept and this subject is completely knew to me.
First I would like to understand this tool and how it is used in this system
http://www.mcmaster.com/#eductors/=b05gh1
jet pumps
If I am correct the water that flows into this thing comes with a greater force.
I looked at the picture and I am not getting anywhere and reading the posts are not helping me.
I know about vacuum filtering (page 238 hoke)
If anyone can explain this system in the simplest way that would be nice.
Thanks
First I would like to understand this tool and how it is used in this system
http://www.mcmaster.com/#eductors/=b05gh1
jet pumps
If I am correct the water that flows into this thing comes with a greater force.
I looked at the picture and I am not getting anywhere and reading the posts are not helping me.
I know about vacuum filtering (page 238 hoke)
If anyone can explain this system in the simplest way that would be nice.
Thanks
Barren Realms 007
In Remembrance
To put it in very simple terms if you go back and look at 4metals picture. The green pipe that goes into the red pipe has a nozzel on it. The red pipe is bigger than the green pipe and when the fluid from the green pipe goes into the red pipe it pulls a vacume on the red pipe and pulls the fumes from the containers thru the red pipe and they go into the tank and then up thru the stack.
Acid_Bath76
Well-known member
I in the process of building my own scrubber, and I want to make sure I pick up the right water pump. It needs to pull the NaOH/water out of the tank, up, and into the sprayer within the scrubber. I'm concerned that the caustic nature of the scrubbing solution is going to destroy my water pump pretty quickly. What type does everyone here use? Would something like this work?
http://www.amazon.com/Flojet-Electric-Water-Chemical-Pump/dp/B004HL5V5M
http://www.amazon.com/Flojet-Electric-Water-Chemical-Pump/dp/B004HL5V5M
You need a pump to handle corrosives like this
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=27449&catid=629
You also need a flow of at least 250 gph at working pressure
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=27449&catid=629
You also need a flow of at least 250 gph at working pressure
NoIdea
Well-known member
Hello - the water pumps used in washing machines are design for mild caustic solution, those found is washing powder, and alot cheeper. The coil is sealed in plastic to prevent moisture damage.
Deano
Deano
NobleMetalWorks
Well-known member
Hello,
This is my first post, I have silently been reading this forums, and learning a lot. So before I go any further, yes I have read Hoke, and I think she was brilliant, and I honestly try to find answers before I post questions. I am really happy that this forum exists, it seems there is very little real information anywhere that is easily digestible and involves so many brilliant minds discussing how to refine PM. It's awesome. So I have read many many posts in the forums and have set up a fairy decent garage lab/gold recovery system. The only two parts that are missing is a fume hood/scrubber, and an XRF scanner. The scanner is a pipe dream, haha, so I am working on the fume hood/scrubber and came across this post. Awesome post by the way.
I had a few ideas, the type of filter this is, is almost the same type of venturi filter that I use for my salt water tanks. I have 5 huge tanks, these filters help keep the nitrates/nitrites out of my water. The idea is to pump the water into the venturi reaction chamber, and add air, via an air stone. The air entering the chamber has a positive charge, and lucky for my fish the nitrate/nitrite are negative. The air bubbles attach and carry the waste to the top where the bubble pops, and leave behind the negative nitrite/nitrate in a cup around the top. The air is allowed to escape.
I had mine made to my spec by Tap Plastics so that I could add some additional features, one that has really seemed to help a lot was installing a submersible water pump on the bottom of the reaction chamber, right above where the air enters the chamber via an air stone. In this way I can keep the bubbles in the water longer because they are spinning around instead of just going straight up to the top. Obviously you need to position the pump so that it pushes the water along the inside making it swirl. It seems to me that if you do this with this filter, you could actually cut the size of the reaction chamber down and even use less water in the process. Also smaller bubbles would react faster, if you put the submersible pump where the air actually enters, it seems that it would cavatate and cause the bubbles to break up into even smaller bubbles. I think you could even shorten the reaction chamber more, and use even less water.
Also, for my reef filters I use a plastic media that allows for bacteria to grow on it's surface so that it breaks the biological garbage in the water into nitrates, they have been created to maximize surface area so that the largest possible number of bacteria can grow on their surface, cutting down on the amount of space needed. If this media was used, it would cause the bubbles to take even more time to make it to the top of the chamber, and I think you know what I am going to say, next.
Also, if the air is positive charged going into the chamber, in the form of an air stone and I believe you would not have to purchase one of those expensive lab air stones because the pump would be pumping clean water directing on it, but I might be mistaken about that. Anyway, isn't the gas being drawn into the reaction chamber negative charged? If the air bubbles are being pushed by water into the air/gas coming into the chamber, you not only create a cavatating effect, but you are mixing the two types of air together which seems like it would help in the reaction.
I wonder if aquarium pumps might work, they are fully sealed in hard plastic except for the impeller, I am not sure what material the magnet is made of, nor the axel the impeller rides on. How much nitric has to be in the water before it starts reacting on metals? If you dissolved a small amount of Urea in the water, would this solve the problem, or just create another problem by creating Urea Nitrate?
Just my thoughts, and I may even be way off if I am please be kind because this is after all my very first post. =)
This is my first post, I have silently been reading this forums, and learning a lot. So before I go any further, yes I have read Hoke, and I think she was brilliant, and I honestly try to find answers before I post questions. I am really happy that this forum exists, it seems there is very little real information anywhere that is easily digestible and involves so many brilliant minds discussing how to refine PM. It's awesome. So I have read many many posts in the forums and have set up a fairy decent garage lab/gold recovery system. The only two parts that are missing is a fume hood/scrubber, and an XRF scanner. The scanner is a pipe dream, haha, so I am working on the fume hood/scrubber and came across this post. Awesome post by the way.
I had a few ideas, the type of filter this is, is almost the same type of venturi filter that I use for my salt water tanks. I have 5 huge tanks, these filters help keep the nitrates/nitrites out of my water. The idea is to pump the water into the venturi reaction chamber, and add air, via an air stone. The air entering the chamber has a positive charge, and lucky for my fish the nitrate/nitrite are negative. The air bubbles attach and carry the waste to the top where the bubble pops, and leave behind the negative nitrite/nitrate in a cup around the top. The air is allowed to escape.
I had mine made to my spec by Tap Plastics so that I could add some additional features, one that has really seemed to help a lot was installing a submersible water pump on the bottom of the reaction chamber, right above where the air enters the chamber via an air stone. In this way I can keep the bubbles in the water longer because they are spinning around instead of just going straight up to the top. Obviously you need to position the pump so that it pushes the water along the inside making it swirl. It seems to me that if you do this with this filter, you could actually cut the size of the reaction chamber down and even use less water in the process. Also smaller bubbles would react faster, if you put the submersible pump where the air actually enters, it seems that it would cavatate and cause the bubbles to break up into even smaller bubbles. I think you could even shorten the reaction chamber more, and use even less water.
Also, for my reef filters I use a plastic media that allows for bacteria to grow on it's surface so that it breaks the biological garbage in the water into nitrates, they have been created to maximize surface area so that the largest possible number of bacteria can grow on their surface, cutting down on the amount of space needed. If this media was used, it would cause the bubbles to take even more time to make it to the top of the chamber, and I think you know what I am going to say, next.
Also, if the air is positive charged going into the chamber, in the form of an air stone and I believe you would not have to purchase one of those expensive lab air stones because the pump would be pumping clean water directing on it, but I might be mistaken about that. Anyway, isn't the gas being drawn into the reaction chamber negative charged? If the air bubbles are being pushed by water into the air/gas coming into the chamber, you not only create a cavatating effect, but you are mixing the two types of air together which seems like it would help in the reaction.
I wonder if aquarium pumps might work, they are fully sealed in hard plastic except for the impeller, I am not sure what material the magnet is made of, nor the axel the impeller rides on. How much nitric has to be in the water before it starts reacting on metals? If you dissolved a small amount of Urea in the water, would this solve the problem, or just create another problem by creating Urea Nitrate?
Just my thoughts, and I may even be way off if I am please be kind because this is after all my very first post. =)
SBrown said:
Sorry, I got lost in all the fish tank talk. If I missed a question please repost it or send a pm.
The fume hood is made from polypropylene and is welded together, and since it is welded any spills will stay it the fume hood. If the price is right I could build one for you. The tubing from the lab hood is HDPE, but could be made from schedule 40. The scrubber is HDPE (I believe) and is way too big. There are lawn sprinklers at the top and crushed marble at the bottom. I would buy a acid proof pump that is rated for the height of the water to push and the amount of water you need to flow (Granger). The most important is the fan..... get a acid proof fan. If you work in an enclosed area in the winter like me...... your life is worth what you spend.
Acid_Bath76
Well-known member
overdriv said:
wow! looks great!!
NobleMetalWorks
Well-known member
I decided to attempt to build this. I am going to give Taps Plastic a call tomorrow and see if I can get some of the parts fabricated in the way I want, here are a few ideas I had. I think I might be able to improve upon the design using my knowledge of aquarium filters. I know hardly anything about these types of systems when it comes to scrubbing, so I am hoping that if I am in error, in my thinking, someone will please correct me.
Right above the drain valve I was thinking of putting another valve that would ensure water flow was cut going up the blue pipe so that the pump can be used to pump the waste water out of the reservoir. The valve already in that line should be kept, but I think making the T off the valve threaded, so a chemical resistant hose or spout can be screwed in, might come in handy.
Splitting the reservoir tank down the middle with a sheet of PVC or Polypropylene sheet to just below where the water line would be so that the water can still move back and forth through the reservoir, just not the air. The red air line coming into the tank from the hood would go through this separator to the opposite side of the chamber from the access port. The red water pipe coming down into the reservoir tank, that T's with the air coming in from the hood would also go under the water line just like in the diagram, but not as low as the sheet of plastic that splits the reservoir in half.
The reason for this design is to keep the plastic balls in the next modification from moving to the access port side.
In the side of the reservoir opposite the access port, fill that side with bio balls used in salt water reef tank filters. The idea behind that it breaks up the bubbles even smaller as they pass through them, and it slows the bubbles travel time to the surface down a considerable amount. Plus, some bubbles will collect on the plastic balls and stay for awhile. The plastic bio balls look like this.
This is the part I feel I may be wrong about, but I would like to know if it's totally off base or may work. I think the chamber that has the spray head requires some room to react with whatever gas is left over, but I would also like to fill this chamber about halfway with the same bio balls, my thinking is this. As the balls get wet, the droplets of water will capture some of the outgas from the reservoir, when the droplets collect and become heavy enough they will make their way back down into the reservoir.
I like the idea of the viewing port in the 12 ducting pipe, I am going to see if Taps plastic has any clear plastic tubing that is acid resistant (polypropylene?) that can either be inserted in the middle so that you have a clear view all the way through, or that the entire length of the pipe can be made from.
For the reservoir I am thinking of using a 55 gallon DI water barrel, I can purchase them used from the place I purchase my Nitric Acid for $10 a piece. They are made out of a super heavy duty plastic that is about 1/4 inch thick, much better than plastic garbage cans, I currently use them to throw the recycle scrap I don't process into, like aluminum, etc. I think this would work perfectly, the lid is plastic welded air tight. I think just simply cutting a hole in the top for the 12 inch Conduit would work.
At the bottom of the reservoir tank I am thinking about putting in air stones, with a small aquarium air pump and tubing outside the chamber pumping air into the air stone inside the chamber. My thinking is this. The outgas coming into the reservoir is negative charged, the air coming out of the air stone is positive charged. As the two react with each other the negative charged outgase ions will be attracted to the positive charge air bubbles and will jump from the outgas air bubbles, to the outside of the positive charged air bubbles so that when they pop on the surface of the water, they let the negative charged ions go to be absorbed into the water instead of rising to the top of the 12 inch pipe.
Putting a 500gph submersible aquarium pump at the bottom of the reservoir, pointing in such a way as to make the water, with air bubbles, move in a circular pattern, keeping the bubbles in the water even longer. And even better, more cost effective and energy efficient way of doing this would be to simply angle the red water line entering the reservoir so that it makes the water mixed with the outgas follow the inside wall of the reservoir thus creating a similar swirling effect and keeping the bubbles suspended in the water longer.
Okay, have at, critic the hell out of my ideas please, but be constructive so that I can learn from any mistakes I made in my thinking.
And thank you!
Right above the drain valve I was thinking of putting another valve that would ensure water flow was cut going up the blue pipe so that the pump can be used to pump the waste water out of the reservoir. The valve already in that line should be kept, but I think making the T off the valve threaded, so a chemical resistant hose or spout can be screwed in, might come in handy.
Splitting the reservoir tank down the middle with a sheet of PVC or Polypropylene sheet to just below where the water line would be so that the water can still move back and forth through the reservoir, just not the air. The red air line coming into the tank from the hood would go through this separator to the opposite side of the chamber from the access port. The red water pipe coming down into the reservoir tank, that T's with the air coming in from the hood would also go under the water line just like in the diagram, but not as low as the sheet of plastic that splits the reservoir in half.
The reason for this design is to keep the plastic balls in the next modification from moving to the access port side.
In the side of the reservoir opposite the access port, fill that side with bio balls used in salt water reef tank filters. The idea behind that it breaks up the bubbles even smaller as they pass through them, and it slows the bubbles travel time to the surface down a considerable amount. Plus, some bubbles will collect on the plastic balls and stay for awhile. The plastic bio balls look like this.
This is the part I feel I may be wrong about, but I would like to know if it's totally off base or may work. I think the chamber that has the spray head requires some room to react with whatever gas is left over, but I would also like to fill this chamber about halfway with the same bio balls, my thinking is this. As the balls get wet, the droplets of water will capture some of the outgas from the reservoir, when the droplets collect and become heavy enough they will make their way back down into the reservoir.
I like the idea of the viewing port in the 12 ducting pipe, I am going to see if Taps plastic has any clear plastic tubing that is acid resistant (polypropylene?) that can either be inserted in the middle so that you have a clear view all the way through, or that the entire length of the pipe can be made from.
For the reservoir I am thinking of using a 55 gallon DI water barrel, I can purchase them used from the place I purchase my Nitric Acid for $10 a piece. They are made out of a super heavy duty plastic that is about 1/4 inch thick, much better than plastic garbage cans, I currently use them to throw the recycle scrap I don't process into, like aluminum, etc. I think this would work perfectly, the lid is plastic welded air tight. I think just simply cutting a hole in the top for the 12 inch Conduit would work.
At the bottom of the reservoir tank I am thinking about putting in air stones, with a small aquarium air pump and tubing outside the chamber pumping air into the air stone inside the chamber. My thinking is this. The outgas coming into the reservoir is negative charged, the air coming out of the air stone is positive charged. As the two react with each other the negative charged outgase ions will be attracted to the positive charge air bubbles and will jump from the outgas air bubbles, to the outside of the positive charged air bubbles so that when they pop on the surface of the water, they let the negative charged ions go to be absorbed into the water instead of rising to the top of the 12 inch pipe.
Putting a 500gph submersible aquarium pump at the bottom of the reservoir, pointing in such a way as to make the water, with air bubbles, move in a circular pattern, keeping the bubbles in the water even longer. And even better, more cost effective and energy efficient way of doing this would be to simply angle the red water line entering the reservoir so that it makes the water mixed with the outgas follow the inside wall of the reservoir thus creating a similar swirling effect and keeping the bubbles suspended in the water longer.
Okay, have at, critic the hell out of my ideas please, but be constructive so that I can learn from any mistakes I made in my thinking.
And thank you!
Something to consider is temperature, gases aborb into cold solution and stay longer than in hot solutions, also some chemical reactions tend to heat up a solution.
The bio balls are a great idea. You could possibly have a smaller chamber if you use them. I decided to use the "KISS" system as my goal was to keep ME breathing and knowing that full well the fan was blowing the "bad air" outside. There is a reason I used crushed marble in the bottom of the reaction chambers of the scrubber. Most acids react with marble and the reaction should neutralize the acid and give off harmless gases. In my system there are only two reaction chambers, the 55 gallon drums. The thirty gallon drums on top are to be used in the future. If you want to improve on my design:
1. use bigger pipes from the lab hood to the scrubber. This will increase the air flow/suction.
2. Make the lab hood bigger to handle more reactions.. I can do AR, silver cell, inquartation and cementing silver all at the same time. I can be working at less that an arms length while these are reacting and not smell a bad fume. Bigger windows and bigger lab hood would have been great.
3. Put bigger inlet air vents on the lab hood.
Remember, to vacate the air in the room as well. Put suction vents at floor level and up high as well. If you are going to use a torch inside make sure you have a means to suck out those fumes as well. Silver, Cadmium, and many other metals that we melt can have toxic off gases as well. Consider propane (cheaper fuel) and hydrogen (for platinum) instead of acetylene because of the black carbon deposited on your lab work.
Your bubbles and whatever become secondary to staying alive.
Good luck.
1. use bigger pipes from the lab hood to the scrubber. This will increase the air flow/suction.
2. Make the lab hood bigger to handle more reactions.. I can do AR, silver cell, inquartation and cementing silver all at the same time. I can be working at less that an arms length while these are reacting and not smell a bad fume. Bigger windows and bigger lab hood would have been great.
3. Put bigger inlet air vents on the lab hood.
Remember, to vacate the air in the room as well. Put suction vents at floor level and up high as well. If you are going to use a torch inside make sure you have a means to suck out those fumes as well. Silver, Cadmium, and many other metals that we melt can have toxic off gases as well. Consider propane (cheaper fuel) and hydrogen (for platinum) instead of acetylene because of the black carbon deposited on your lab work.
Your bubbles and whatever become secondary to staying alive.
Good luck.
NobleMetalWorks
Well-known member
I picked up my hood today, it's actually very nice. I got the hood and 6 cabinets, one fire, one acid, one shelves with glass sliding doors, and three that have 3 huge drawers. I picked up each for 100, spent a total of $600 dollars. The hood looks like it's never been used. It has an acid resistant coating, a glass sliding door in the front, a polypropylene black bottom. Any ideas on the best way of connecting the scrubber without cutting into the metal if I can help it? I was thinking about having taps plastic fabricate a bottom ring that the hood would set on, out of polypropylene and put the scrubber pipes through that into the inside of the hood and then just simply pipe them inside to wherever I needed suction.
Any ideas on that?
overdriv, I looked at the pictures you posted, I understand the hood, the pipes coming off the hood so that you get suction from different areas of the hood, I am assuming the pump is a submersible in the small blue container on the cement in front of the reservoir rack? Or is that wrong, I see the fan, and the large 12" conduit, I am assuming that the conduit is expelling offgas and the fan facilitates by pushing rather than pulling? That way it doesn't have to be acid resistant? It looks like a large squirrel fan, is that right? What is it's airflow? And does that exit out of the room behind the hood? I was planning on using one 55 gallon drum rated for chemicals that I picked up from a local Bio Tech Firm I used to work for, I have three of them. Do I need two? I was going to use one, and then make a 6-7 ft spray down tower with the spray nozzle at the top and make it out of 12" conduit. If I split the pump like you have, into two 6ft tall, 12" PVC conduit and had them come out of the top of the barrel would that be enough? Or do you think I should just use two 55 gallon barrels?
I am trying to make the system as compact, width wise as possible. But if I am wrong with the design I am talking about, please someone tell me.
The ground up marble was a stroke of brilliance, where did you find yours?
If the spray down stacks wouldn't work, couldn't I have Taps plastic weld two plastic 55 gallon barrels, one on top of the other and do it that way? Would that be a better design?
Here is a picture of the hood I picked up today for $100, I couldn't believe it! It's a 6 ft wide Canadian Cabinet acid resistant hood.
Any ideas on that?
overdriv, I looked at the pictures you posted, I understand the hood, the pipes coming off the hood so that you get suction from different areas of the hood, I am assuming the pump is a submersible in the small blue container on the cement in front of the reservoir rack? Or is that wrong, I see the fan, and the large 12" conduit, I am assuming that the conduit is expelling offgas and the fan facilitates by pushing rather than pulling? That way it doesn't have to be acid resistant? It looks like a large squirrel fan, is that right? What is it's airflow? And does that exit out of the room behind the hood? I was planning on using one 55 gallon drum rated for chemicals that I picked up from a local Bio Tech Firm I used to work for, I have three of them. Do I need two? I was going to use one, and then make a 6-7 ft spray down tower with the spray nozzle at the top and make it out of 12" conduit. If I split the pump like you have, into two 6ft tall, 12" PVC conduit and had them come out of the top of the barrel would that be enough? Or do you think I should just use two 55 gallon barrels?
I am trying to make the system as compact, width wise as possible. But if I am wrong with the design I am talking about, please someone tell me.
The ground up marble was a stroke of brilliance, where did you find yours?
If the spray down stacks wouldn't work, couldn't I have Taps plastic weld two plastic 55 gallon barrels, one on top of the other and do it that way? Would that be a better design?
Here is a picture of the hood I picked up today for $100, I couldn't believe it! It's a 6 ft wide Canadian Cabinet acid resistant hood.
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