NOX Protection

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Jmk88

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2019
Messages
352
Dear All,

I thought I’d post the following as it may be useful to newbies that don’t have the capacity or for whatever reason do not want to build a fume hood.

Scott safety provide a series of masks, namely, the Sari, the FM4 and the Vision masks which connect to Pro2000 filter cartridges. These cartridges are able to provide guaranteed protection against NOX fumes and almost all other forms of particles.

These masks and filters work when your oxygen levels are above 17%; in layman’s, the NOX fumes must not make up more than 17% of the atmospheric content. Honeywell sell NOX detection and measurement devices for less that £75.00. Using in conjunction with the above can provide a good workable level of protection.

If the levels are above this, an air fed system must be used with protection from the contaminated atmosphere. I would not advise doing so. Above 17% is dangerous territory.

By using professional glassware such as 24/40 joints, closed systems can be created which with good heat and pressure management, can boil away nicely without pressure build ups and eruptions.

You will still get some emissions from closed systems whatever, but with the above PPE you will have little to no risk, particularly with use of a NOX reader.

These masks also protect from Sulphur Dioxide which in my opinion, is way worse than NOX if you are even slightly exposed.

I hope the above is helpful as I was looking for months for adequate NOX protection and even the general web is very difficult due to the varying standards, classes and brands of equipment. This can all be bought for less than 120.00 U.K. pounds so really no excuse.

Kindest Regards
 
Just to add to that... flasks such as 3 necked boiling vessels are great for closed systems and with 24/40 specifications, you can cut down 22mm pvc pipework which provide a tight fit and can connect vessels.

I have found that you should always double the size of your flask to ensure minimal risk of pressure build up and spillage. Exploding glass is not something you need to be around.

Therefore, if you are Heating 500mm of nitric, use a 1000mm flask minimum. It allows better pressure equalisation and allows the vapours to slowly transfer through beakers. An ice bath will ensure condensation of NOX fumes which also allows efficiency with acids.
 
SO2 is in no way worse than NO2.
Sure, it will send you outside the lab choking but it won't damage the lungs permanently like NO2.
When I was a kid our town was polluted by a plant with large amounts of SO2 and I have no lasting effects from this. There were days the air was foggy and you could barely stay outside.

NO2 is different.
In fact, some refiners can ruin their lungs in a few months/years of work to a degree they need a transplant: beat that ! All due to the daily NO2 exposure, that *adds up*. It acts just like chlorine, slowly and irreversibly destroying the lung tissue.

I would NOT rely on any masks but they do help for sure.
In addition to the masks I would use a good fume hood and a good scrubber.

If you can smell NO2 you have leaks and it's not good.
 
Masks/respirators are not to trusted to save your life! Period!

They are for emergency/escape use only, not for regular use. Just 10 minutes of concentrated exposure can destroy the cartridge's. I've seen it happen in less time.

The best protection is a properly designed and operating fume extraction and de-NOx scrubber system.

Don't shorten your life and/or those around you by depending on one.

I know I'm sounding a bit harsh, but having one will make you develop an attitude of thinking your ok, when you're not. It's like a safety on a loaded gun, if you think it won't fire because you have the safety on, you already have a grave problem, literally.

Don't trust it. Just don't.
 
So all the British standards and European standards are telling porkies?

As well as the manufacturers and their data sheets?

They must all be in it together....
 
https://sps-support.honeywell.com/s/article/Nitric-Acid-70-Respiratory-Protection-Europe

I think what I am saying needs to be taken in context... ie emphasis placed on the process used. A closed vessel where fume generations are limited.

I’m not talking about standing over a 2 litre open vessel pot of nitric... I’m talking closed systems.

I have never got close enough to nitric fumes to comment on inhalation but I’ve been hit with S02 and it hurt for days. But that’s not the point. My point is if you’re working on closed systems, like you say, you smell seepage but if you’re working outside or in a open space then these masks will provide protection.

I feel it’s extremely misleading saying other wise. And again, not talking about open vessels of boiling AR and nitric. We are talking closed here.... where if you do your job properly it’s minimal.
 
Yes you are correct 3M is in fact ineffective....

Although that’s not what I’m talking about.

3M is for dust particles and completely ineffective against vapours of any kind.
 
3M, worldwide, has available, over 400 models of surgical, dust, respirator, and other masks under several brand names. They also make cartridges for many models of respirators, including replacement cartridges for respirators made by others. None will protect against nitrogen dioxide fumes. As far as I know, no mask or cartridge made today will protect against NOx fumes.

Should I decide to set up something new when we move, it will have a fume hood, fume scrubber, and a positive air pressure personal protective hood with external air source.

Time for more coffee.
 
Are we nitpicking?

First, let's start with an apples to oranges problem. In Jmk's original post he said:
Jmk88 said:
These masks and filters work when your oxygen levels are above 17%; in layman’s, the NOX fumes must not make up more than 17% of the atmospheric content. Honeywell sell NOX detection and measurement devices for less that £75.00. Using in conjunction with the above can provide a good workable level of protection.

That's two very different things. As I read Honeywell's information in the link Jmk provided, it indicates their system can protect as long as the oxygen concentration is above 17%. Follow the link and make your own assessment

I disagree with Jmk's statement that "in layman’s, the NOX fumes must not make up more than 17% of the atmospheric content." That's a whole different matter. Honeywell's article deals with a minimum oxygen concentration, not a maximum NOx concentration.

Then we got off on a tangent about 3M respirators. Jmk agreed 3M's filters are not effective, but he had already provided Honeywell's link, so I'm not sure how we got there.

Now we've wandered to debating 3M's various offerings in filters.

So to try to bring the discussion back on topic, first I would say I would never rely on a mask. I agree with rickbb. masks and other PPE are intended to be your last defense in case all your other engineering controls fail.

Having said that, Jmk seems to have provided a link to a Honeywell product that can offer some protection as PPE if all other systems fail.

Dave
 
This:

PPE are intended to be your last defense in case all your other engineering controls fail.


If you can smell it you need PPE, if you can see it (every where) it's IDLH and you need to get the hell out and get in an SCBA and Class A or B suit.
 
And again, Jon im talking about a last defence line. As I say, if you are using decent boiling flasks with the correct connector points, my preferred is a liebig condenser pumped with iced water. If you do not rapidly heat and you control the pressure, there should be very little seepage of contaminants which using the links I’ve posted, you should be safe.

I will caveat again, as I would not exactly be stood over an open vessel in a poorly ventilated environment.... or anywhere other than outside.

Myself, I use these for when I have cooled reactions and want to filter; they provide you with that safety. I have nearly completed my fume hood design which I will be building in the coming weeks.

I will post each stage of this too for both feedback and to help other newbies.

I also think the point regarding NOX detectors should not be taken lightly.... it’s the stannous chloride of tox. You need to know what levels you’re generating to accurately risk assess.... not something you should be guessing.

And don’t forget if you live in somewhere like London, your exposure to NOX daily will far exceed any exposure if you are using a professional closed vessel system.

Ask Butcher.... when I first came around I was using Pyrex pots (outside) I may add.... and very quickly identified the problem. Open vessels unless used in a hood, are avoided by me at all costs.

I’ve even notes bumble bees fly around my closed systems and they’re fine.... use an open system in a shed and you’ll return once you’ve cooled it all (power source needs to be a distance away) and it’s like an insect apocalypse which for me is enough in itself to consider. I’ve only seen a fly or two by my closed vessels which I won’t lose sleep over.
 

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