Silver scrap - film

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If they're modern medical x-rays, you can expect about 10 oz of silver, total, from your 100 pounds. If you run full sheets, you will find that the sheets will stick together, causing the stripping to go very, very slowly and complete stripping may be impossible. Since you're just playing around, I would suggest you first run the film, a sheet at a time, through an old decent paper shredder. This will make the stripping go much faster and you will be less frustrated.

Some of the newer film may be Dryview, which is developed by heat instead of by chemicals. It will strip slower and you may find that you'll have to raise the temperature of the solution considerably. Dryview is detected by briefly holding a lighter underneath a non-black clear area of the film - maybe on the border. If it is Dryview, the spot will turn black. This has to be done right. If you don't leave the flame long enough, nothing will happen. If too long, even regular film will burn and turn black, although the black color is different - it's more like a very dark brown. A second or two or three should be long enough. Some big film refiners won't buy Dryview because it's such a pain to process. Some Dryview requires special in-house secret solutions to get good stripping.

Stripping is complete when all of the black has been removed and you're left with just blue (usually) plastic.

Stripping time in a NaOH solution is a function of chemical strength and temperature. The weaker the NaOH, the higher the temperature required. A 3% solution requires about 200 F. A 10% solution, about 100 F to 120 F. With the 10% solution, you may get away with room temperature but it may go slow. Tumbling is always best in production. In your case, I would drill some holes in a small bucket, put some film in it, and slowly bob it up and down, every so often, in the solution that is contained in a larger bucket. After stripping, bob the film in a couple of buckets containing rinse water. Wear a full plastic face shield to keep drops of NaOH solution from flying into your eyes. After the silver/emulsion sludge has settled and been removed, the solution can be reused, over and over. If if slows down, you can add a little more NaOH. Never get NaOH under your fingernails or you'll be in pain for a long time. Don't ask me how I know this. Always wear good rubber gloves with no pin holes in them.

Everyone uses tap water. You could lose traces of silver as silver chloride, however. Some of the chlorine in the water can be eliminated by filling buckets with water and, with occasional stirring, letting the water stand for a few days before using it. As Harold said in a recent post, the value of the silver lost is less than the cost of distilled water.
 
goldsilverpro said:
Never get NaOH under your fingernails or you'll be in pain for a long time. Don't ask me how I know this. Always wear good rubber gloves with no pin holes in them.


Speaking from the position of a guy that once got a direct hit in the eye with a drop of nitric acid (which popped out of a beaker as it was poured), be damned careful about not getting any NaOH in your eyes.

It took but seconds for the surface of my eyeball to peel. It turned an ugly yellow color, then fell off. I feared I had done permanent damage. A quick trip to an ophthalmologist was very revealing. He informed me how fortunate I was (sure as hell didn't feel like it) having been exposed to nitric instead of lye. He said that when lye enters the human eye, one has but 15 seconds to prevent blindness. According to what he said, the human body can neutralize nitric fairly easily, which is not the case with lye. It continues to do damage until it has been totally consumed--which is far beyond the time it takes to blind an eye.

Be very careful.

Harold

PS-----my eye turned out fine, although it did take several days.
 
GSP!!!! Harold !!! or anyone that can HELP!!

I have come into some possible good luck today while at my day job (telecommunications contractor...mostly 2 way communication satellite systems IE: internet) I was talking to my customer who happens to be be in the X-Ray business and says he personally goes threw about 2 semi's loads worth of equipment monthly and knows 8 other guys that do the exact same as him. They have the scrap parts and so far don't do much with it from my understanding. They know it contains silver but not much else. I'm just courious if you might be able to help me see if this is indeed something I would like to wet my feet with. The help is GREATLY APPRECIATED!!

-Rich
 
Can't provide much input until you can identify the nature of the material. If it's plated, could be it wouldn't be worth messing with. Can you provide more information?

Harold
 
ok found out some more info on it. appears the guys company works on a system called Pack or pac or paq or something like that. basicly from my understanding it is what they use to backup x-rays, on a regular basis, digitally. It has something to do with networking so gold may also be found in it. And today when the guy called me back he offered me a job. why?? especially when I told him my focus was I am making an effort to check out refining/recovery of pm's. anyone know anything about this system and why they need such regular serviceing. the gent said he's been doing it for the last 47 yrs.
 
Interesting, but totally lacking in information regards what you might expect in the way of metals. You need far more information before you can expect a helpful response, unless one of the readers has knowledge of the system you mentioned. I'm at a complete loss.

Harold
 
ok sorry I don't know more. but I can clarify thanks to good ol' google it is called PACS or PAC system. the PACS returned the best results when I googled "x-ray+PACS" minus qoutes. not sure that helps any more but that is all I know so far.
 
Hi GSP.

This is going to sound like a strange one, but did you know what the gelatin turned into after the enzymes?

I decided to atone for the (vast) ecological sins of my youth by developing zero residue refining technology. This means nothing comes out that is not water vapor, CO2 (I don't accept that as a pollutant), or a usable product. (Many tell me it can't be done, I love a challenge).

I expect to use the film waste as part of a solid industrial fuel product. I would try to sell it as scrap PETE, but as I understand it some new films are mixed with another plastic. Saw a patent on separating the 2, but I think it would be easier for me to turn into fuel.

My thinking for the gelatin residue is fertilizer but I would like to know what I would be starting with.
-G
 
hi I have 2000 kg of virgin xray film , and i get 500 kg of dryview, i really need help, I'm trying with the process of manuel, fixer, sodium sulpnide, salitre, borax, but. There are other method? , and , what i can do with the dryview films?,i get this films for free, please help me.
ERICK
 
wolfville said:
HI I HAVE 2000 KG OF VIRGIN X RAY FILM, AND I CAN GET 5000 KG OF DRYVIEW, I REALLY NEED HELP , I'M TRYING WITH THE PROCESS OF MANUEL FIXER SODIUM SULPHIDE, SALITRE, BORAX, BUT THERE ARE OTHER BETTER METHOD? AND WITH THE DRYVIEW?, I CAN GET THIS FILM FOR FREE, SO I CAN'T SAY NO, PLEASE HELP ME
ERICK

Please edit out the all caps.
It will help you get a response.

Jim
 
excuse me, i need a good method to recover silver from dryview films and virgin x-ray film, thanks
Erick
 
Hi There,

This might sound stupid but why does B&W movie films contain silver but color movie films don't?
 
wolfville said:
excuse me, i need a good method to recover silver from dryview films and virgin x-ray film, thanks
Erick

Standard virgin rare earth x-ray film is usually processed with hot sodium hydroxide (NaOH) solutions. The NaOH breaks down the emulsion, converts the silver halides to silver oxide, and removes the emulsion and silver oxide from the plastic film base, forming a sludge. The sludge is then filtered, rinsed, incinerated, and the ash is flux melted and the pure silver is poured into bars.

Another way is to leach the virgin film in a sodium thiosulfate (hypo) solution. This dissolves the silver halides and the solution is the put into an electrolytic cell with a rotating cathode to plate out the silver.

Dryview is different. As I understand it, the silver compound is applied to a thin layer of mylar (saran) which is applied to the PET plastic film base. To remove the silver, the bond between the mylar and PET must be broken. This requires reaction in a very hot alkaline solution with the addition of a 2 or 3 proprietary additives for an extended period of time. There's a lot more to this than I've mentioned. Very difficult to do. This company claims to be the only one to do this successfully.
http://www.petag.net/
 
wilstyle said:
Hi There,

This might sound stupid but why does B&W movie films contain silver but color movie films don't?
Virgin color films contain quite a bit of silver. During the developing, all of the silver is removed from the film and is replaced by dyes, as I understand it.
 
I love this post thank you folks. film on another hand is way out of my league, living in such a little state like vermont, the rural factor would kill me trying to find stuff like that. As the avatar name suggest, yes i like silver, and thats what i do concentrate on. gold and platinum is not my thing. When i first got into scraping, boy i would scrap everything. But it was out of control, then one day i looked at my pile of stuff that ive been building up and just decided to concentrate on one thing. silver it is, i dont think its easier then gold or platinum, i just like it better for some weird reason. so slowly i have traded off some of my piles.

What i have thought of doing is finding someone that would take my PM materieals, say for instance all my chips and process them, they keep the gold and they send me the silver back. I know that i would probably loose in the end, by it would be a means to a end. what do you all think? tim
 
goldsilverpro said:
.... The silver/emulsion came off as a black sludge. Every evening we stirred the solution and pumped it up to settling tanks. Next morning, we syphoned the solution, off the sludge, back into the strip tank. The same solution was used over and over. The sludge was treated and melted to a purity of 99.98%. Film silver is very pure to start with. If you don't contaminate it, you don't have to refine it. All you have to do it burn the sludge and melt it....



I'm taking questions.

Please excuse the bumping of an ancient thread, but rather than create a new one...

I'm a jeweller and my husband is a photographer and has about 50l of spent fix which is being stored in a dustbin in the yard. We know we can convert the silver in the fix by dumping some wire wool in it, but what about the black sludge which will be produced? Most of the refining stuff I've read says that the sludge should be taken for refining, but these are photographers and need very pure stuff. I would really like to use the silver recovered to make an anniversary gift... a kind of mixing of our two crafts if you like. So the silver doesn't have to be 99.99% pure, in fact I'd need to add some of my old 800 fineness to make it more useable.

I'd like to know do I need to refine the sludge and if so, how (simplest DIY method please!) or, can I just smelt it down and work from the ingots produced.

Look forward to hearing suggestions.

M
 
medusa said:
Please excuse the bumping of an ancient thread, but rather than create a new one...

I'm a jeweller and my husband is a photographer and has about 50l of spent fix which is being stored in a dustbin in the yard. We know we can convert the silver in the fix by dumping some wire wool in it, but what about the black sludge which will be produced? Most of the refining stuff I've read says that the sludge should be taken for refining, but these are photographers and need very pure stuff. I would really like to use the silver recovered to make an anniversary gift... a kind of mixing of our two crafts if you like. So the silver doesn't have to be 99.99% pure, in fact I'd need to add some of my old 800 fineness to make it more useable.

I'd like to know do I need to refine the sludge and if so, how (simplest DIY method please!) or, can I just smelt it down and work from the ingots produced.

Look forward to hearing suggestions.

M
M,

Welcome to the forum. You can find all the information you need here on the forum, but it will take some time and research. There are several ways to recover the silver from fixer. If you use the search function found at the top of each page you'll find numerous posts on the subject. Try a search with the words "recover silver fixer", without the quotes.

The first rule is to be safe in everything you do. Before you jump into any of the processes you see discussed here, be sure you understand the potential hazards and do everything you can to minimize the risks. Read EVERYTHING in the Safety section of the forum, especially the Dealing with Waste topic. No amount of precious metal is worth jeopardizing your health or the health of those around you.

Just to get you started, here's a link to a thread in the "Silver" category of the forum titled: Recover Silver From Fixer.

Once you recover and refine your silver, you would be better off adding fresh copper to it to alloy to the final fineness you desire. Each time you melt an alloy that contains base metals (e.g., the copper in your 800 silver), some of the base metals will oxidize. Remelting your 800 will produce more oxides. These oxides will result in porousity in your finished product. Pure, fresh copper is easy to find and inexpensive. Copper wire used in home wiring is electrolytically pure. So starting with refined silver and copper wire, you can create any alloy you want, melt it only once, and experience a minimum amount of problems.

Dave
 
Thank you for the welcome, Dave :)

My bad, I did a search for "Silver Fixer sludge" and alighted on this discussion.

I regularly use Hydrochloric and Hydrofluoric acids in my workshop (or rather yard... hydrofluoric is pretty horrifying stuff), so I'm pretty up to date on safety and storage but some useful other info in there.

I'll ask in the correct thread.

M
 
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