I am looking at another way of making an electrolytic cell using Ammonium Chloride (NH4CL) and using an UNGLAZED planting pot as an ion curtain to take gold into solution, and I am not sure what chemical will precipitate the gold from ammonium chloride. Does anyone know? :shock: :roll:
What chemical will precipitate gold from ammonium chloride
- Thread starter tom341
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Tom,
In the setup you described the gold never goes into solution. It percipitates as the cell is run. The silver and base metals will go into solution. You don't need any membrane or ion barrier in this set up. Just bag the anode (gold) in a nylon bag and collect the powder as it separates from the solubles. The cathode is graphite.
Steve
In the setup you described the gold never goes into solution. It percipitates as the cell is run. The silver and base metals will go into solution. You don't need any membrane or ion barrier in this set up. Just bag the anode (gold) in a nylon bag and collect the powder as it separates from the solubles. The cathode is graphite.
Steve
Hello Steve,
Good to here from you on this. The reason for this question is that I am looking for a cheap manor of deplating gold from pins and gold plated items using a stainless steel SHAKER BASKET as an anode and graphite as a cathode. I guess that I was missing the point that the other metals would go into solution and the gold would stay as a solid. I see other systems for sale that are very expensive and claim to deplate as well as refine the gold, and as best as I can tell the electrolyte is ammonium chloride.
Good to here from you on this. The reason for this question is that I am looking for a cheap manor of deplating gold from pins and gold plated items using a stainless steel SHAKER BASKET as an anode and graphite as a cathode. I guess that I was missing the point that the other metals would go into solution and the gold would stay as a solid. I see other systems for sale that are very expensive and claim to deplate as well as refine the gold, and as best as I can tell the electrolyte is ammonium chloride.
tom341 said:
Tom,
I would venture to say that everyone on the forum would like to find something like this. I'm constantly trying to find ways to lessen the processing costs while decreasing the recovery time and preparation cycle.
tom341 said:
The refining part usually comes after from the recovery stage. Even in systems where the gold is removed effectively, the reaction solution tends to foul the purity enough to the point where an additional refining step is mandatory.
Steve
What you're talking about are the Shor patents.
I haven't read them in awhile but, if I remember right, there are 2 different formulations of ammonium chloride covered in 2 different patents. The stronger formula dissolves everything, including the gold. The weaker one dissolves everything except for the gold. In both, the silver is kept in solution as an ammoniacal complex
If you don't use the semi-permeable membrane in the weaker formula, what happens at the cathode? Do the base metals plate out or, are they prevented from doing so by the complexes formed? If the base metals do plate out, you would have a mess that you couldn't live with. If this happens, the membrane would isolate the cathode from the metal solution so nothing plates out. In the case of the stronger solution, you have to have the membrane to keep the gold from plating out.
I have also wondered, for a long time, about using an unglazed flower pot for this. The problem is, how do you seal the drain hole? I think I would try fiberglass cloth and the waterproof 2-ton epoxy from WalMart - about $2. Don't get the 5 minute epoxy because it's not entirely waterproof. Also, the putty type waterproof epoxy would probably work.
In any case, the membrane wouldn't hurt.
Probably, the first application of using a membrane for this sort of thing was a "fizzer cell". This was a cell using a "porous cup" in the production of gold chloride for use in a Wohlwill cell. The Simplicity cell uses a porous cup (Google). In one of the Shor patents, I believe that it is mentioned they are available in up to a 1 gallon size
Like I said, I haven't read the patents in awhile. When I get the chance, I'll read them and post a summary here. I have been planning, for awhile, to post a complete breakdown of the patents and the secrets of the Shor Simplicity machine but, I haven't gotten around to it.
I haven't read them in awhile but, if I remember right, there are 2 different formulations of ammonium chloride covered in 2 different patents. The stronger formula dissolves everything, including the gold. The weaker one dissolves everything except for the gold. In both, the silver is kept in solution as an ammoniacal complex
If you don't use the semi-permeable membrane in the weaker formula, what happens at the cathode? Do the base metals plate out or, are they prevented from doing so by the complexes formed? If the base metals do plate out, you would have a mess that you couldn't live with. If this happens, the membrane would isolate the cathode from the metal solution so nothing plates out. In the case of the stronger solution, you have to have the membrane to keep the gold from plating out.
I have also wondered, for a long time, about using an unglazed flower pot for this. The problem is, how do you seal the drain hole? I think I would try fiberglass cloth and the waterproof 2-ton epoxy from WalMart - about $2. Don't get the 5 minute epoxy because it's not entirely waterproof. Also, the putty type waterproof epoxy would probably work.
In any case, the membrane wouldn't hurt.
Probably, the first application of using a membrane for this sort of thing was a "fizzer cell". This was a cell using a "porous cup" in the production of gold chloride for use in a Wohlwill cell. The Simplicity cell uses a porous cup (Google). In one of the Shor patents, I believe that it is mentioned they are available in up to a 1 gallon size
Like I said, I haven't read the patents in awhile. When I get the chance, I'll read them and post a summary here. I have been planning, for awhile, to post a complete breakdown of the patents and the secrets of the Shor Simplicity machine but, I haven't gotten around to it.
tom341,
I, for one, would be very interested in your results.
Can you give links as to these deplating systems that are for sale? I'm not sure that any chemical system is available that would eat the gold and not the pins, except for cyanide, iodide, bromide, or the sulfuric stripper. I would definitely be interested in knowing if there was anything else out there. I've been thinking about this problem for 40 years.
I, for one, would be very interested in your results.
Can you give links as to these deplating systems that are for sale? I'm not sure that any chemical system is available that would eat the gold and not the pins, except for cyanide, iodide, bromide, or the sulfuric stripper. I would definitely be interested in knowing if there was anything else out there. I've been thinking about this problem for 40 years.
THX Goldsilverpro,
“You are right”, this is the exact system I was talking about. I actually own one of these systems but it would be nice if a person could retrofit the system to do pins and plates and alike. And be something the everyday Joe could afford. If we could only figure out the chemicals and a good retrofit to do electronic scrap instead of karat gold items. . OH and about the hole in the pot would a rubber stopper work?
“You are right”, this is the exact system I was talking about. I actually own one of these systems but it would be nice if a person could retrofit the system to do pins and plates and alike. And be something the everyday Joe could afford. If we could only figure out the chemicals and a good retrofit to do electronic scrap instead of karat gold items. . OH and about the hole in the pot would a rubber stopper work?
Yes, I think a rubber stopper would work very well. Sometimes, I get so egg-headed that I don't see the most obvious solution.
jimdoc
Well-known member
How about bondo for filling the whole?
I'm not sure that Bondo is waterproof. I think it is only water resistant. I could very well be wrong. I used to use it to fill blemishes on my exterior carved signs but, I always covered it with 4 or 5 coats of paint.
THX GUYS,
I guess a person could just buy the chemicals from Shor, but the pot does appear to be ceramic unglazed. I called the people at Shor and priced that ceramic pot and when he told me it would cost me over $500.00 I kindly thanked him and hung up. OUCH the pot I have is a grayish white in color, but if I can make this work man it would help so many people on this form to do electronic scrap fast and efficiently.
I guess a person could just buy the chemicals from Shor, but the pot does appear to be ceramic unglazed. I called the people at Shor and priced that ceramic pot and when he told me it would cost me over $500.00 I kindly thanked him and hung up. OUCH the pot I have is a grayish white in color, but if I can make this work man it would help so many people on this form to do electronic scrap fast and efficiently.
$500 is absurd. I don't think that Shor wants you messing with this thing and they're discouraging you. The cup they're using probably cost only $20 - $30.
Most of the best U.S. ceramic labware is made by Coors - the beer company. They used to make ceramic beer bottles and that's how they got into it. I would bet that the porous cups used by Shor are made by Coors. Here's a Coors catalog and price list. You may have to buy the stuff through a distributor. The porous cup listed, P-1/2-BC, is the right pore size. The biggest one they list, 2"X4". cost $30.
http://www.coorstek.com/resources/8510-1097LabwareCatalog.pdf
http://www.coorstek.com/resources/8510-1032_Labware_Pricelist.pdf
They come in different pore sizes. I think the patent said that the pore size has to be .5 microns, or less.
Most of the best U.S. ceramic labware is made by Coors - the beer company. They used to make ceramic beer bottles and that's how they got into it. I would bet that the porous cups used by Shor are made by Coors. Here's a Coors catalog and price list. You may have to buy the stuff through a distributor. The porous cup listed, P-1/2-BC, is the right pore size. The biggest one they list, 2"X4". cost $30.
http://www.coorstek.com/resources/8510-1097LabwareCatalog.pdf
http://www.coorstek.com/resources/8510-1032_Labware_Pricelist.pdf
They come in different pore sizes. I think the patent said that the pore size has to be .5 microns, or less.
Here's two of Shors karat cell patents. One uses a salt and acid for the electrolyte with a membrane, the other uses no membrane with ammonium chloride.
The acid version puts the gold into solution, the ammonium chloride version doesn't.
Steve
The acid version puts the gold into solution, the ammonium chloride version doesn't.
Steve
The Shor patent of the ammonium chloride electrolyte that dissolves the gold also is #5,009,755. It has 1 to 2 pounds of ammonium chloride per gallon, 2 to 4 ozs of NaCl per gallon, and .25 fl.oz. of hydrogen peroxide per gallon. The anode is bagged and the anode solution is separated from the cathode by a membrane. I think this patent is what the Simplicity machine is based on but, I need to read the Simplicity instructions again to make sure. I may be wrong. The Shor patents are quite confusing and I haven't spent that much time analyzing them. The catalyst is probably the peroxide. The gold can be dropped with any of the common sulfite compounds. The Pt group metals stay in the anode bag.
mike.fortin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2007
- Messages
- 106
LazerSteve--anyone besides me report to you about their having difficulty downloading or opening your second Schor patent acrobat file? The first one worked great. The one put up by GSP worked great. Thanks for any clues or assist. Mike.
Mike Here it is again. I tested it just now and it worked all the way to the last page.
mike.fortin
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2007
- Messages
- 106
LazerSteve--thanks for your reply. It downloads about 428K and then tells me there is an error in the file and it cannot open it. I don't know what to try next. Could there be some setting in my own machine I'm tripping over at 428K? I'm open to ideas. Thanks. Mike.
All,
Anyone else having the same problem with this file?
Anyone else having the same problem with this file?
jimdoc
Well-known member
I just downloaded them fine and I am on a PII with Windoes 98 and DSL.
