working without a hood?

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yossarian

Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
14
First I would like to say that I did many searches and did not find a satisfactory answer.
I have also gone through Hoke, enough times that my eyes hurt, and what concerns me is that she seems to underemphasize some of the dangers involved. Even the hazards section seems rather nonchalant about fumes.

Now, I don't intend to do any real "processing" without a good hood and scrubber, although I do have a good full face respirator, I know it will do nothing to save me from NOx fumes
I am wondering if it is reasonably safe to attempt some very small scale experiments either outdoors or in a well ventilated room with a powerful fan.
I intend to try a few of Hoke's acquaintance experiments, and possibly try refining a small amount of pins. By small scale I mean a gram or less of materials and no more than a couple of milliliters of acids, quantities that would easily fit in a test tube.

The purpose is to get feeling for how chemicals react and how the process works. but I am unsure if small quantities like this can still create harmful quantities of fumes that can overwhelm me.
 
yossarian,

You are correct this can be a deadly field of work, but with education and undderstanding it can be done fairly safely.

There is much more to this than most realize.

The gases can be dangerous, and precautions need to be taken to protect yourself from them, I recommend studying the acids your using and the gases that form from these acids when mixed with metals, depending on the acid used and the metals in these solutions will determine which gas or combination of gas is formed, some of these gases like nitric can form NOx gases a wide variety of nitric oxide gases, HCl gas and chlorine and others can be formed from hydrochloric acid, depending what metal or other acid or oxidizer is involved, some of the gases can be poisonous gases used in past wars, sulfuric acid can form sulfur dioxide gases and other sulfur compounds, depending on reactivity series of the metals (look reactivity series up and study also it is a very useful tool), hydrogen gas can form with certain metals in most acids, as well which along with oxygen or other gases could be combustible in a confined area, caustic Hydroxide solutions and some metals can also form hydrogen gas, some of these gases can get very complicated, and in recovery and refining we can be dealing with many combination of these gases, also if working with Ore (minerals), or even in electronics we can be dealing with arsenic and other dangerous and poisonous compounds, even some of the metals we refine the gases formed can blind you even if you did protect your lungs from them, studying as much as you can and reading the forum can help educate you, but many of these compounds formed through the different processes we use can be complicated, and here taking precautions to avoid these unknown gases and body contact with unknown solutions is a very good idea, studying good lab practices and safety precautions can help to protect you from these unknowns, another real possibility in refining metals is making some type of primary explosive compound, along with many other dangers that can pollute yours or others environment, these toxic metal compounds can be very dangerous if improperly treated, here studying how to treat your waste properly is very important.

It is very scary to think of a person reading a couple of pages on some cockeyed internet page of how to get gold using acids, and think all they have to do is dump acids on these metals and make gold bars. These people are very dangerous to all of us, possibly poisoning themselves and others, not to mention the hazardous mixtures they can make using experimentation with unknown combinations of chemicals and metals, then they come to the forum with a big mess wanting us to tell them how to fix the problem they have of not making that gold bar, and get upset when we tell them they are doing everything wrong and to study to learn to do things properly and safely (yes this study can take years, and the more years you study this the more you find out how much more you still need to learn and how much you do not know) this forum and its members is a great education tool for anyone smart enough to take the time to learn, and education in my mind can help to protect you and others from this complicated science we use.

Now if working in test tubes with Hoke's experiments, you can do this outside in the fresh air, with a little breeze, or with a fan blowing fume away from you, the amounts of gases from these test tube experiments will be small in volume, just do not stick your nose in there and take a big whiff of gas, to see what it smell like. :lol:

Joking aside, I wish to say that you are doing what we wish most new members would and should do, studying and asking the right questions, I feel if you keep this up you will do just fine.

I do my recovery and refining outdoors, although I am working on building me a shop to do a few of the processes inside, I have the fume hood I will need for this, but I think I will still do most of my work outdoors in the fresh air, the shed will have a carport type roof extension to keep the rain and snow from running down the back of my neck on those cold winter nights, and to keep those leaves and bugs out of my solutions that are always falling out of that nice shade tree oak I now refine under now.


Keep up the good work you are doing, if you do you can be very successful in this field, and you will be gaining the education and understanding you need to keep yourself and others as safe as possible.
 
yossarian said:
I have also gone through Hoke, enough times that my eyes hurt, and what concerns me is that she seems to underemphasize some of the dangers involved.
Yep! I agree. However, she reflects the values of her time---when women did wing walking and safety belts in cars were unheard of.
While it's difficult to sort, extract from her teachings the things that really matter, and apply them with today's wisdom. One case in particular where she leads a reader totally astray is when she suggests that one toss on gasoline generously when incinerating. I most likely don't have the wording correct, but you should get the idea.

Her techniques are very good, if you can overlook some of her misguided suggestions where safety is concerned. If you learn to process by her methods, you'll achieve success, which is a far cry from much of the misinformation generally provided on the internet.

Want to be safe, learning how to do things properly? Stay on this forum. There's no shortage of skilled and experienced people leading others in the craft of refining.

Harold
 
Sorry to necro this thread but I figured it was better to contribute to an existing thread rather than creating a new one. I've been reading many user posts where people explain or describe their refining process. It seems many hobbyists are doing it outdoors or with ventilation, in the absence of a proper hood. I understand this is for their personal safety. But what about the environment? I don't intend to accuse anyone of anything, I'm genuinely trying to educate myself. So is it okay to disperse the fumes resulting from refining processes in the air as long as no one breath them? or must one use a "scrubber"? I'd be grateful for any links describing what kind of scrubber is required and where one can obtain one. Thank you for your time.
 
Arion this is a weird mater ... nox is constantly created in the air around us by lightning and other source,most of the water we drink is chlorinated witch mean that clorine will go in the air,volcano and other stuff create a lot of so2 gaz ,we sold sulfuric acid to unplug our toillette (right down the drain),acid rain dissolve church roof and do do a lot of cucl in the ground,hcl is sold to clean concrete in open air..... but what if everybody start to dont care .....
 
Wanted to add to this thread rather than create a new one. Can anyone point me in the direction of a thread dealing with safe distances from property when using nitric acid and AR. Also what the effects on trees and wildlife could be.

My acid working area will be in the NE corner of my land in the open. To the North of me is forest and to the East of me is forest. To the South and West is our village, approx. population 2000. My house lies about 20-40 metres from this corner to the South.

I intend to only do acid work during Southerly and Westerly breezes. I will have a small desk fan always pointed at the top of my glassware/stoneware during evaporation, reaction and heating stages ensuring I push the fumes away from myself while working. I will be processing small amounts of gold each session approx 5-15 grams of gold. How will the Nitric fumes and AR fumes be broken down in nature? Will I kill any trees or birds with these fumes?

The only thing I currently do indoors in my kitchen is remove pins from processors using a 510c heat gun under my oven extraction fan with the window open. I heat the pins for 20secs using the gun and then quickly scrape them off along with the small resisters using a screwdriver. I never create any fumes using this method. Are there any odourless invisible fumes that I should be aware of?

Hoke's book is really good but does not cover safety in detail and she always refers to working outside as safe.

Regards,
AuH-R
 
The nitric fumes would eventually fertilize trees, but first it is considered a pollutant as it can form acid rain, if your working with small volumes, you would not create much acid rain, NOx in the air is also formed by lightning and is natural, if you are far enough away from your house and your tools you should not have that much trouble on a small scale (keep your nose out of those fumes).

What is worse for the trees or plants is the chlorides which also can form acidic rains, but can form salts in the soils which can kill plants or trees, if the soils salt content became too high, but here again if your not dumping your waste, and processing on a small scale these fumes would be so dispersed the tress would not suffer.

Many of these fumes are heavier than air and will usually fall towards the ground, or be washed to the ground by moisture, fog or rain in the air, which will end up back into the soil where they came from before man made acid from them.

Any time you can capture these fumes the less you are polluting the air, and many times the captured fumes can be useful, as you can get some of your nitric back by capturing some of your NOx fumes.
 
Good to know Butcher, thank you. I am no fanatical environmentalist who believes we all should go back to the Stone Age. However, I take responsibility for my actions, so want to be safe where I can and when I have control.

The rest of this year will probably be just spent removing pins and treating with HCL until I have at least 15 -20g of foils. I am going to look into recycling the nitric as you should suggested. I came across that in Hoke's book or maybe my other book. It was suggested to sit your reaction flask in a big pan of water. You then place a big bowl upside down over the top making sure it’s big enough to leave a gap at the top for the fumes to leave. The rim of the bowl sits in the pan of water. This then enables the nitric to condense on the bowl and drip into the water. I will look into this over the next year and also what other options are out there because it maybe cheaper for me to just buy more acid.

Regards,
AuH-R
 
Distilling is one way, lab glass distilling rigs, and if done right even home made distilling rigs can be made up and used (following all safety precautions).

Refluxing, or scrubbing solution and gases is one way to lower fumes or even recover some acids, some times dilution or even an additive like H2O2 can help to keep fumes in solutions to do work to dissolve metals instead of wasting them to make polluting gases.

Sometimes gases or waste products or byproducts of reactions can be reused or made into something useful.

I do not want to give the impression that these gases do not hurt our environment, because they do, and our waste can poison the land and people as well as animals, and we need to do anything we can to eliminate them, and treat them safely to the best of our ability, (but then again look at the gases one volcano, or forest fire puts out, your small operation is not a drop in the bucket) and when you work responsibly you greatly reduce impact, if you do everything you can to control your waste, treat it, reuse or capture fume and work responsibly, you can take care of our mother earth.

I am defiantly not one of those stupid stump huggers, but I do love our trees, and our mother earth, and feel very responsible to do my share to take care of it, and not bite the hand that feeds me, or destroy my home, I was an environmentalist,
(Until these stupid people who live in these big city’s polluting their own back yards, become environmentalist, and started coming out in the woods which they know nothing about, and began to destroying my back yard),
(Now I am not no longer an environmentalist, those idiots ruined that name to call someone who cares about our environment).
 
You are right, gasses are polluting. I've once read one the web that millions and millions of years ago, the element Cl, was everywhere and the result was that there were no life on the earth, til water washed all of it into the sea into form of sodium chloride (common sea salt). even today, the dead sea, bear this name for the high presence of salt. Now if that is true or not I'm not sure. One thing is really true is that the main component which formed (and still is) the hole in the ozone layer is Chlorine, again. CFCs. 1 molecule of Cl can reduce 10 molecules of O3 in O2. And our manmade Cl makes the most of the damages, as it being much more stable than the one in nature.
And that's just one, of the gasses. NOx, well, if you want to believe in global warming or not, stil, researches prooved that it would last at least 57 years in the atmosphere. The less we pollute, the better.
 
You guys are right what you say about pollution, no doubt. But I'd like to relativize it. Think of the great amounts of NOx from cold started car motors in the morning, when people drive to work. Think of all the Cl2 from all the swimming pools in the summer. Mention pyrotechnical material. I could go on. Those are proportions we never will reach. There is quite a difference, if you sometimes have some gram of gold to proceed, which probably has "educational purposes" or if you do it in order to earn money. In the last case you should study your law, here in germany it will be hard to start such a business lawfully. Something which often was pointed to in this forum is the acceptance of our hobby in the majority of the population. A "green" ecological approach to proceed will surely affect their opinion as much in a positive way, as it will in a negative way, if we didn't show responsebility. So, I love your attitudes.
 
solar_plasma,
Yes what you stated is so true, if we are responsible we can avoid trouble with authority such as DEQ, EPA, and others, we can keep from poisoning ourselves and those around us, and we can keep from contaminating the ground, water and air around us, and we can help to recover and refine metals environmentally friendly, where otherwise they may also become a pollutant. And if we are responsible we may be able to continue to recover and refine metals legally, but all it takes is just a few doing something stupid to ruin it for everyone else.
 
I need 700 cfm for my hood. I have alot sizes plastic body blowers but no one know about cfm. So can i use these fans 12 v brushless. 200 cfm each . 4 fans .
 

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I need 700 cfm for my hood. I have alot sizes plastic body blowers but no one know about cfm. So can i use these fans 12 v brushless. 200 cfm each . 4 fans .
You can. But they will not last long. Acic will corrode them and plastic will melt. You need acid resistant blower. Made of PVC.
 
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