Silver from silver plated cutlery

Hello guys

Since some weeks I try to refining silver plated cutlery. The Moebius method it simple and the produkt is easy to get.
But on one point the whole process is to expensive. You need destilled water for this process. And when 60g/l Copper is solved in the solution, the solution must be changed. That means dispose that stuff or reusing after a recycling process. Otherwhise destilled water is to expensive.

Had anybody a answer to this problem?

The other method is copper refining to get the silver from the cutlery. That means you get silver which sinking down to the bottom, and the copper which travel to the cathode. But the zinc is still on the solution.

Had anybody a answer to this problem?
Whats happend when zinc reached a critical concentration? Did it also travel to the cathode? Or sink it down to the bottom into the whole solution. And that means it also sink on my silver.

Thanks

galvo said:

Hello guys

Since some weeks I try to refining silver plated cutlery. The Moebius method it simple and the produkt is easy to get.
But on one point the whole process is to expensive. You need destilled water for this process. And when 60g/l Copper is solved in the solution, the solution must be changed. That means dispose that stuff or reusing after a recycling process. Otherwhise destilled water is to expensive.

Had anybody a answer to this problem?

The other method is copper refining to get the silver from the cutlery. That means you get silver which sinking down to the bottom, and the copper which travel to the cathode. But the zinc is still on the solution.

Had anybody a answer to this problem?
Whats happend when zinc reached a critical concentration? Did it also travel to the cathode? Or sink it down to the bottom into the whole solution. And that means it also sink on my silver.

Thanks

Click to expand...

If you want to work with silver you have to have universal solvent that is Chloride Ion free, no way around it I am afraid.
You could use untreated well water, or build your self a still.

... and that's the reason silver plate isn't considered to be worth refining.

Göran

Really? Chloride Ion free? That mean from NaCl? Or from HCl?

I have only one attempt whit NaCl. On the top of the soluten there was a green deposit. And on the ground there was a yellow I mean?

But what is this?

When I take a spoon, then there is silver on the surface and brass in the middle. That means it must react to:

CuCl2 --> good soluble whit 620 g/l
ZnCl2 --> very good soluble whit 4300g/l
AgCl --> almost insoluble and white 1,88mg/l

And how goes far?

The hole point of the H2O de-plating process is to get at the very surface layer.
It should react to the current almost immediately , You then stop the current and find a fresh piece.
That way you should not be putting much base metal into solution.
You are using a H2O cell not a silver cell aren't you?
Thumb cells are for relatively pure anodes.eg 97-98% Ag or copper if that is your desired finished metal.

galvo said:

Hello guys

Since some weeks I try to refining silver plated cutlery. The Moebius method it simple and the produkt is easy to get.
But on one point the whole process is to expensive. You need destilled water for this process. And when 60g/l Copper is solved in the solution, the solution must be changed. That means dispose that stuff or reusing after a recycling process. Otherwhise destilled water is to expensive.

Had anybody a answer to this problem?

The other method is copper refining to get the silver from the cutlery. That means you get silver which sinking down to the bottom, and the copper which travel to the cathode. But the zinc is still on the solution.

Had anybody a answer to this problem?
Whats happend when zinc reached a critical concentration? Did it also travel to the cathode? Or sink it down to the bottom into the whole solution. And that means it also sink on my silver.

Thanks

Click to expand...

The problem is that you're using a silver cell to try and reclaim silver plate from copper base metal. You may be the first person I've ever heard of to do that. The silver cell is used to purify silver bullion that is already 85% pure, at least. It's best to have it a minimum of 98% pure. It's definitely not for silver plate on copper. That copper base metal wants to dissolve by that solution as fast as the silver does. No wonder the copper builds up to 60g/l so fast. Who told you that this was the way to do it? It surely wasn't on this forum. What you're doing will never, ever be profitable

You need to somehow strip the silver from the copper base metal, recover the silver, melt it and then you can purify it in the cell. The problem here is that stripping the silver is not that easy. There really is no stripper that is profitable, in my opinion.

In general, unless it's very thick, silver plate is a loser. No refiner I know of will accept silver plated copper, mainly because they know of no method to do it profitably.

You might try the electrolytic water stripper as mentioned by justincase on this thread. At least there are no chemical costs or waste.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=16591&hilit=water+stripping+silver

Not so easy to understand your description. (I´m german)

Why H2O de-plating process? It is a solution made of destilled water, a salt like CuSO4 und a acid. That is a copper refining sell.

"You are using a H2O cell not a silver cell aren't you?" The same understanding problem. Do you mean a cell like Moebius or a copper refining sell?

"It should react to the current almost immediately , You then stop the current and find a fresh piece." If I understand it right, then I must turn up the electricity from my power supply, to get a fast reaction. Correct?

galvo said:

Not so easy to understand your description. (I´m german)

Why H2O de-plating process? It is a solution made of destilled water, a salt like CuSO4 und a acid. That is a copper refining sell.

"You are using a H2O cell not a silver cell aren't you?" The same understanding problem. Do you mean a cell like Moebius or a copper refining sell?

"It should react to the current almost immediately , You then stop the current and find a fresh piece." If I understand it right, then I must turn up the electricity from my power supply, to get a fast reaction. Correct?

Click to expand...

Tell us exactly what chemicals you used and how much of each you used to make up the cell you are now using.

Ok. Currently I run a cell whit a volume of 1,7l.
0,1mol/l CuSO4 and a small shoot ob concentration H2SO4 98%. Maybe 5ml. To solve to Oxides an the surface of the knife.

As cathode I use stainless steal. The attempt in the picture runs 16 hours by 3V and 0,25A.

The distance between the anode and cathode was 12-13 cm.

Currently it runs the same set up, but, the distance is now 6cm and 5V / 0,5A.

The knife stands in a cup which is perforated. It is for collect the silver.

I'm confused. In your first post, it sounds like you're running a nitrate Moebius silver cell. In your last post, it looks like a sulfate copper cell. The parameters that apply to the first will not apply to the second, and visa versa. What are you doing and what are your questions?

Hello

I tryed both cells in the last week. To find out which cell better for recycling silver plated material.

1. Moebius
2. Copper refining

What is your opinion, which cell is better for silver plated material?

Maybe you have a option 3 ?

galvo said:

Hello

I tryed both cells in the last week. To find out which cell better for recycling silver plated material.

1. Moebius
2. Copper refining

What is your opinion, which cell is better for silver plated material?

Maybe you have a option 3 ?

Click to expand...

Per the underlined - goldsilverpro all ready provided you with a link to a thread (in one of his earlier post) about a cell that uses nothing but water for the electrolyte

goldsilverpro posted

You might try the electrolytic water stripper as mentioned by justincase on this thread. At least there are no chemical costs.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=16591&hilit=water+stripping+silver#p167641

Click to expand...

Have you gone & read that thread yet ?

Its a long thread but should tell you all you want to know

Kurt

Yes I have. Thanks

And I also watch the videos to this topic on YT. But I am not sure if the yield is the same, when I use Moebius.

Currently, Moebius is for me the only cell which I get the theoretical silver value. That mean. A 100 plated big spoon ~ 4g. And a 90 plated spoon ~ 3,5g

Thats fine and makes sence when I use this cell to get some money. But there is only one problem. The electrolyte, the accumulate zinc and copper.

And that is the main question. How can I remove it?

And whit the H2O cell from piped water. I mean in every video there told, that a tiny amount of silver is still on the flatware. That problem I don´t habe when I use Moebius.

Piped water has a similar amount of ingredients like 0,1 mol/l HNO3. Even more. So when I use Destilled water and HNO3 = 0,1 mol/l, then the cell runs better, the flatware has lost 100% silver, and the impurity is not worse then piped water.

To me, neither of the 2 cells you've tried are suitable for recovering silver plate. The nitrate (Moebius) cell, as you noted in your 1st post, will consume too much chemicals. Silver plated copper is probably the worst type of scrap you could have chosen. In the 10 years this forum has existed, there have been many, many attempts to recover plated silver economically, with essentially no success.

I see no practical way to remove the Zn and Cu

A lot of us have wasted much time with silver plate.

First of all, set aside what you believe to know, it will only make it hard for you to learn and for us to teach.

Short cut: follow the advices, processing silver plate isn't worth the efford! But at least it is quite interesting. 100g per 2400cm2 is the right material for the tap water cell. Read the link and read the links within the thread. You will most probably need to read them several times.

If you still believe sulfate or nitrate cells would be the right way, think once more! It is just making the same amount of mess like if you would use acid to dissolve all metal. Yes, it is probably the only way to get all the silver, but calculate how much acid you will need. 2400cm2 will probably be something about 1-2 kg of metal, about 20-40 moles of in this case divalent dissolving metals (Zn, Cu, Ni). So using HNO3 or HCl you will need 40-80 moles or 10-20L 4M acid. Using 4M H2SO4 it will still be 5-10L. Just ballparked.

Using the mentioned sulfate or nitrate cells will probably be double as much. That's because your copper electrolyte is fouling withing hours. The copper will be replaced by nickel (nasty by the way) and zinc.

Running the silver-copper blend once again through a cell will work much better, but how much waste do you want to produce and how many hours of work do you want to spend for just 80-100g of silver (expect 20% less that was gone by polishing).

By the way ESG pays a good price for higher quality silver plate.

The tap water cell is the only way to avoid producing a lot of nasty waste solutions. Use tap water, not distilled water, - there is method in the madness! And hammer everything flat, since otherwise you will lose more silver.

solar_plasma said:

A lot of us have wasted much time with silver plate.

First of all, set aside what you believe to know, it will only make it hard for you to learn and for us to teach.

Short cut: follow the advices, processing silver plate isn't worth the efford! But at least it is quite interesting. 100g per 2400cm2 is the right material for the tap water cell. Read the link and read the links within the thread. You will most probably need to read them several times.

If you still believe sulfate or nitrate cells would be the right way, think once more! It is just making the same amount of mess like if you would use acid to dissolve all metal. Yes, it is probably the only way to get all the silver, but calculate how much acid you will need. 2400cm2 will probably be something about 1-2 kg of metal, about 20-40 moles of in this case divalent dissolving metals (Zn, Cu, Ni). So using HNO3 or HCl you will need 40-80 moles or 10-20L 4M acid. Using 4M H2SO4 it will still be 5-10L. Just ballparked.

Using the mentioned sulfate or nitrate cells will probably be double as much. That's because your copper electrolyte is fouling withing hours. The copper will be replaced by nickel (nasty by the way) and zinc.

Running the silver-copper blend once again through a cell will work much better, but how much waste do you want to produce and how many hours of work do you want to spend for just 80-100g of silver (expect 20% less that was gone by polishing).

By the way ESG pays a good price for higher quality silver plate.

The tap water cell is the only way to avoid producing a lot of nasty waste solutions. Use tap water, not distilled water, - there is method in the madness! And hammer everything flat, since otherwise you will lose more silver.

Click to expand...

solar_plasma

You are so right in your statement. :G

I am so thankful to you for believing in that madness and for the research you contributed to that thread.
It was a great accomplishment for me to have figured it out at all.I give you my respect sir.You still stand by the cell till this day,thank you.



modtheworld44

modtheworld44 it was your discovery on the net and it was you who introduced it to the forum. Thanks a lot!

I did only find some links that explained what happens chemically. No big deal.

I haven't done my full research on this subject,so anticipate a broadside,but ive been using modtheworld44's h20 cell for awhile to deplate old silverware and have a jar full of black powder I assume is silver,i haven't melted any yet and to be honest I feel it has contaminates as there were some green deposits in the filtered powders and it didn't seem as all silver was striped from target object...im sure all will work out in the end and I'm thankfull for all i've learned here. I guess my question here is, If one was to dip a silver plated utensil into nitric acid and monitor it diligently until silver is gone and then add utensils until reaction stops and then drop silver from pregnant solution with copper bar?
Is this just too simple? I don't have nitric yet or I would have tried and reported. failures are just as ,if not more, important than successes.
.

thanks for any input.best school on the internet

(edit wordage)

As soon as you expose any base metals to the acid cementation will take place, the problem is even worse because items rarely plate exactly the same thickness in dips, holes, corners or curved surfaces, so although you can watch it strip you are going to leave some silver behind or cement some back out.

I figured that would be too simple, Thanks.