99.5%? Is it possible?

Is it possible for a refiner on lots of 4,000 grams or more of clean karat scrap already melted into a bar to pay 99.5% and still make money, while still giving an accurate assay?

(What I mean by clean is the bar will contain nothing else besides Au, Ag, Cu, Ni and Zn.)

my guess is no but dont take my word for it.

Hi Montecristo!
What is or are the karats of these bars???

1 Bar
.5671 Au or 13.6 kt. (As tested by a trusted and calibrated XRF unit)

You have to figure how much gold is in the bar & pay only for the gold content in the bar, not for the total weight of the bar. In other words, you would be pay'n gold price for the grams or oz of base metal. If that's the case, no, you won't make money, that is, until the price of gold goes high enough...
Check this post I'm sorry, can't find the author.

Re: Refining for coin shop
If you're going to buy the gold "over the counter" (i.e. buying it outright before refining) you should value the gold less than "plumb" and then take off 3%.

For instance, assume the gold is 13.5k instead of 14k (a lot of jewellery is under-karat anyhow. Under US regulations, the karat content has a tolerance of 0.3%. If jewellery contains solder, the overall piece is given a tolerance of 0.7%. So a piece of 14k jewellery could legally be 57.6% right off the bat)

So take the spot price of gold, divide it by 20 (dwt/toz), multiply that by .5625 (which is 13.5/24), and then multiply that by 97%.

That should keep you from overpaying for the gold. If you don't take off that 1/2 karat, you'll be paying 99% if not over 100% for the gold...
I mean, you can pay for thr gold as much as you want to, but if you will like to make a profit, you'll have to pay less than spot. I found from a undercover reporter on channel 11 in Georgia that 40% is low end, & 60% is a good deal. Some persons pay as high as 90%. Just be fair to the seller.

I'm sorry, you are talk'n refinig for some one else. So the post Re: Refining for coin shop applies to you. :lol:

Montecristo said:

Is it possible for a refiner on lots of 4,000 grams or more of clean karat scrap already melted into a bar to pay 99.5% and still make money, while still giving an accurate assay?

(What I mean by clean is the bar will contain nothing else besides Au, Ag, Cu, Ni and Zn.)

Click to expand...

at todays spot of 1230.00 the refiner in essence for his effort and materials will make 448.00 plus the silver recovered

Montecristo, I found the post. It's in Board Index/ Refining as a bussiness.
Check it out.

$448 + Silver.

What does it cost you to re melt the bar (electricity or gas costs)?
What are your costs for doing an assay?
What are your chemical costs?
What are your labor costs?
What happens if the price of gold and silver drop while you're refining?
If you've hedged your gold and silver - what are your costs to do that?
What are you going to get paid selling your refined gold and silver?


So again, is the refiner really making $448 + silver?

Revenue is one thing. Profit is a whole other story.

Fournines said:

$448 + Silver.

What does it cost you to re melt the bar (electricity or gas costs)?
What are your costs for doing an assay?
What are your chemical costs?
What are your labor costs?
What happens if the price of gold and silver drop while you're refining?
If you've hedged your gold and silver - what are your costs to do that?
What are you going to get paid selling your refined gold and silver?


So again, is the refiner really making $448 + silver?

Revenue is one thing. Profit is a whole other story.

Click to expand...

agreed profit is a hole other story

Thanks for the replies.

I don't think it is possible for a refiner to give a true payout of 99.5% and still make enough money to stay in business without fudging on the assay.

I only bring it up because someone was telling me that xxxxxx Refiner is paying 99.5% and that I should be sending my materiel there. Obviously, I don't get that kind of return now, so I started thinking. And the more I thought about it, the more I came to the conclusion that it's not very likely that the refiner could actually pay out that much on an honest assay. They probably are banking on people not actually knowing exactly what they are shipping off to be refined and picking up the extra profit on a lower assay.

I thought I would run it by you guys to see if you all came to the same conclusion.

I remember a cartoon in an ad, about 20 years, in a recycling magazine where a refiner had his arm around the customer's shoulder and he winked and said, "You're such a great guy, we'll refine your scrap at no charge"

It comes down to a question of scale, aqua regia refining in large enough lot sizes, costs a medium sized refiner about 1/4 of 1% for labor chemicals treatment of waste etc. Assuming your process yields 99.875 accountability on lot by lot basis and the balance is retrieved from residues, slags, baghouse dust, etc. This says nothing of insurance, security and overhead.

So if you process a Phaudler full of karat you can still make a profit at 1/2%. But there is no room for error. Those rates are for the big refiners and only given on larger lots. So if you're not dealing with JM Branford, Metalor' Republic, or Ohio precious metals, watch your back.

4metals is spot on, these sort of deals exist but only for major suppliers dealing with the refineries who have good delivery status for their bars, meaning they can fix the gold as they buy, or a manufacturing requirement for the gold.The high price allied to the use of the Miller process and Wohwill cells allows cheap and quick recovery of the gold but these are not cheap to install and in the cells you have huge amounts of gold constantly tied up in solutions so constant feeding is required to cover the costs so be wary of any small refinery that claims very high returns.

4metals and nickvc,

Thanks for the replies. So, both of you are saying that it is possible, but not likely, unless we're dealing with 100+ oz. lots of recoverable metal and the refiner can sell his bars directly to the bank who sells them to the COMEX?

Montecristo said:

4metals and nickvc,

Thanks for the replies. So, both of you are saying that it is possible, but not likely, unless we're dealing with 100+ oz. lots of recoverable metal and the refiner can sell his bars directly to the bank who sells them to the COMEX?

Click to expand...

To be honest unless that was a weekly amount they probably wouldnt offer those sorts of terms, as I said they need to have the plant running 24/7 to make it pay and i dread to think of the volumes the big boys can handle and need to keep the plant near capacity. When you have access to the markets you can sell volumes you dont have but delivery in full is usually required within 28 days, fortunes can be made or lost but no manipulation of the markets ever takes place :roll:

Check what Gustavus posted @ Bar & Grill: "Waiting on a customer"; so beware!!! :lol:

Monte,

The attractive rates are the kind given to those who ship upwards of 5000 ounces fine gold content weekly. With the quantities you're talking you could get rates around 1% if you shop around in NYC and if you can produce it week after week. Make sure you are there to witness or the quoted rate means nothing.

I'm not going to chase the extra 1/2% by switching refiners, I sincerely doubt they would deliver that kind of return on a fair assay. I'm pretty comfortable and fairly confident with the refiner I'm using now, but you guys have given me something to think about.

Thanks for the replies.

You can Miller process your stuff in a few hours for a lot less than 0.5% costs and keep the silver. You'd be delivering 995+ or better material to the refiner/buyer, which would probably pay you very near spot price.

On the other hand, 0.5% is about $6 per ounce...so really all this cost savings, etc are dwarfed by price risk. If you are already incurring price risk, and only sell and settle when you want, then consider refining yourself with Miller process.

Forget about Wohlwill and 9999, etc, etc. That's extremely expensive to setup and operate properly. But Miller is cheaper and simpler than acid methods for lots above 100 OZ, produces Good Delivery grade (995+), and the silver is yours to keep or sell separately.

If all you have is a one-off batch and/or your time is better spent sourcing material, then ignore everything I typed and go with a refiner you trust and negotiate your terms. It's very hard to operate successfully anything gold related with anyone other than yourself involved, due to fidelity/honesty issues. Even with someone else that is honest, the suspicions will drain your mental resources. Gold brings out the best and the worst in people, if you see what I mean.

HAuCl4 said:

You can Miller process your stuff in a few hours for a lot less than 0.5% costs and keep the silver. You'd be delivering 995+ or better material to the refiner/buyer, which would probably pay you very near spot price.

On the other hand, 0.5% is about $6 per ounce...so really all this cost savings, etc are dwarfed by price risk. If you are already incurring price risk, and only sell and settle when you want, then consider refining yourself with Miller process.

Forget about Wohlwill and 9999, etc, etc. That's extremely expensive to setup and operate properly. But Miller is cheaper and simpler than acid methods for lots above 100 OZ, produces Good Delivery grade (995+), and the silver is yours to keep or sell separately.

Click to expand...

I really cant agree with you on the cost of setting up the Miller process , the largest problem is having the proper extraction and fume treatment which is really expensive and will have the Environment Agencies crawling over you to check on the fumes released into the atmosphere,not to mention the toxic chloride waste left over which contains precious metals which will need further treatment to recover them and render the material safe to dispose of.One of our leading lights 4metals was involved in setting up a version of this and I hope he can give us an idea as to cost and the issue of total reclamation of all the precious metals from the process.The wet process can be very effective for large volumes as GSP ,Harold and others will bear witness and in the right hands very quick with reasonable accountability and is well documented which the Miller process certainly isnt.