I just started buying scrap gold for a business and had two offers...one was a refining offering %96 after refining and another guy offering %95 upfront ...My question is if the %95 of melt is actually more due to pot loss, ect...Does anyone have experience with how much gold is lost through the entire refining process???
%95 cash or %96 after refining??
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Your question is too vague, how many ounces do you collect before refining? Are you witnessing the melt? Are you getting paid for silver?
The reality of it is what the refiners losses are is his problem, what you get paid is yours. Generally in the refining process 1/8th of 1% of the gold is lost in the residues, exhaust ducts, spillage, melting and fluxing. These losses are recoverable down the line but at a cost. Precious metals are not lost to melting, usually the weight lost is base metals from the alloy.
95 or 96% can be a great deal, or it can be expensive, it all depends.
The reality of it is what the refiners losses are is his problem, what you get paid is yours. Generally in the refining process 1/8th of 1% of the gold is lost in the residues, exhaust ducts, spillage, melting and fluxing. These losses are recoverable down the line but at a cost. Precious metals are not lost to melting, usually the weight lost is base metals from the alloy.
95 or 96% can be a great deal, or it can be expensive, it all depends.
This is why I don't deal with the refining process lol! I sold 15 ounces for cash 95 percent I just figur the time waitin for the money is worth 1 percent right there. Plus a $30 assay fee and no recourse after the melt..if this guy finds a problom he just returns the items and I give him back the difference
You should be getting 98% or better with no fees.
Lou
Lou
A
Anonymous
Guest
Agreed.There are too many companies out there that will give you 98% assuming you have enough weight.Most places want several ounces before they will give you that price,however I doubt you would be stressing oer this if you only had a couple of grams.
I personally would go with the 95% right now.Most companies that offer 98% want to melt and further refine it,and I do not trust ANYONE that won't pay me right then and there for what I have.If you know what you have in front of you,then take the 95% and move on.If you have 5 ounces,you are talking about a difference between $5700,and $5880.But that $5880 is assuming they do not try to short you in some way or another.About 3 months ago,I took a 1.5 ounce button to a pawnshop out of town,that had the stereotypical sign out front that read "We Buy Gold...Top Dollar Paid!!".So I walked in(the gold in my pocket) and asked if they bought 24k scrap gold,and the little girl behind the counter said "of course,what do you have?".I told her I have this button,and handed it to her.After several people there tested it,the largest man in the bunch turned to me and said,I'll give you $500 for it.
10 minutes later when I slowed my laughter enough to talk,I asked him how they came to the conclusion that the button was worth $500.He proceeded to tell me that it was very small and only 14K.I said....first of all,its 24k,trust me you dont want to argue this with me,and secondly and more importantly,even if you were able to get me to believe your b*llsh*t story of it being 14k,you are still only offering me about 40% of spot for it.Needless to say I when I got back into town I took it to my regular buyer.
So they pay you 95% of your un-melted scrap at the full karat you claim it to have tested at? From what I've seen coming in to refineries from gold buyers is far from plumb gold. These days there is no shortage of scrap sellers wanting to get over on scrap buyers who do not know their game. Many are fooled. More today than ever before the only way for a refiner to be sure is to melt and assay.
Your gold buyer will have to learn the hard way, even at 5%, buying cash up front no assay is risky. But then again there are a lot of small refiners who are desperate for work so they take a chance.
Your gold buyer will have to learn the hard way, even at 5%, buying cash up front no assay is risky. But then again there are a lot of small refiners who are desperate for work so they take a chance.
Fournines
Well-known member
95% up front - but based on what? Are they calculating the 14k at 58.3%, or are they factoring in under-karat material?
For instance, in NYC, there is no shortage of buyers who pay "98%" over the counter, but they value 14k at 56.25% or 13.5k.
In Philadelphia, they tell you that they pay "99%", but they value 14k at 55.20% or 13.25k
I agree with 4metals, most material that you come across is under karat - unless you are dealing with casting houses that have contracts to make name brand material. I know a manufacturer who casts pieces for a high end jewelry retailer. The retailer has a representative on site who takes a clipping from every casting tree and assays the material to ensure the purity. The manufacturer is sure to make the 14k and 18k "plumb" because skimping on the gold 1 or 2% (or more) isn't worth having their contract pulled.
However, this isn't always the case, and in any industry there are people who cut corners to make a buck.
Also, according to FTC rules karat gold is allowed to have a tolerance of .30% by weight. So 14k gold can be 58.03% purity and still be legally stamped and sold as 14k. If there is solder on the piece, you are given a tolerance of .70%, meaning the gold by weight can be 57.63% and still be called 14k.
You can read more about that here http://www.jvclegal.org/JVC_guide.pdf
It is usually better to get paid for the actual gold or silver (or other) content of your material. You have to weigh the costs of assays or other refining charges that you might have to determine what is actually best for you.
For instance, in NYC, there is no shortage of buyers who pay "98%" over the counter, but they value 14k at 56.25% or 13.5k.
In Philadelphia, they tell you that they pay "99%", but they value 14k at 55.20% or 13.25k
I agree with 4metals, most material that you come across is under karat - unless you are dealing with casting houses that have contracts to make name brand material. I know a manufacturer who casts pieces for a high end jewelry retailer. The retailer has a representative on site who takes a clipping from every casting tree and assays the material to ensure the purity. The manufacturer is sure to make the 14k and 18k "plumb" because skimping on the gold 1 or 2% (or more) isn't worth having their contract pulled.
However, this isn't always the case, and in any industry there are people who cut corners to make a buck.
Also, according to FTC rules karat gold is allowed to have a tolerance of .30% by weight. So 14k gold can be 58.03% purity and still be legally stamped and sold as 14k. If there is solder on the piece, you are given a tolerance of .70%, meaning the gold by weight can be 57.63% and still be called 14k.
You can read more about that here http://www.jvclegal.org/JVC_guide.pdf
It is usually better to get paid for the actual gold or silver (or other) content of your material. You have to weigh the costs of assays or other refining charges that you might have to determine what is actually best for you.
Fournines,
Haven't heard from you for awhile. Good to see you back. Your great value has been missed.
Chris
Haven't heard from you for awhile. Good to see you back. Your great value has been missed.
Chris
Noxx
Well-known member
Great info, fournines.
Thanks for the PDF.
Thanks for the PDF.
Fournines
Well-known member
goldsilverpro said:
I know I've been away for a bit. Been a little distracted with some personal issues; also a lot of big things happening here at our refinery - good things, but it's been pretty busy.
I try to inject a bit of my knowledge where I think I can...but my value pales in comparison to yours!
Four nine's many of us look forward to your posts here, always something to learn from them.
based on the true karat..Its weird though the other day he claimed that anything over 18k he loses on if he pays over %92 since the under karrating is more so with the higher karat gold..he's paying me %95 for 10k and 14k, but %92 for 18k and above...Maybe ill just find another home for the higher purity gold..
Barren Realms 007
In Remembrance
afbrianh said:
If this is refering to Fournines you might want to check again on your tickets, I deal with him and he treats me right. Could be something to do with your material. You might want to consider refining the material to reach a better level or develope a parnership to do so with someone on the forum.
To expand on fournines post it really depends on how good at buying you are,if you pay the right price for your scrap making adjustments for below carat material ,stones ,steel springs base metal catches ,soap and dead skin you should be far better off dealing with a good refiner as in volume they pay for silver and if you segregate any Pt or Pd bearing scrap for those too. It's easy to work out how much Au you should have and if you melt them yourself,a must in IMHO, and send the bar to the refiner just ask to be advised of their assay before you sell your bar ,this way should the assay be way low they still have your bar in it's original form, if your refiner is reputable they will have no problem with this and if the assay is proved it means you made a mistake in your buying.
Honest refiners are out there just read the comments on the forum about who the members trust.
The real question then is how much faith do you have in your buying decisions?
Honest refiners are out there just read the comments on the forum about who the members trust.
The real question then is how much faith do you have in your buying decisions?
To add to Nickvc's advice, always get in your rate quote the minimum assay payable and the minimum deductions for platinum and palladium, then segregate your materials so all pieces with platinum settings or entirely platinum pieces go into the same melt. This way you will maximize your payout.
And if your volume warrants, always melt in house and send out for assay.
If your ability to profit from this comes down to accounting for soap and dead skin, don't quit your day job!
And if your volume warrants, always melt in house and send out for assay.
If your ability to profit from this comes down to accounting for soap and dead skin, don't quit your day job!
Lmao. I'm just trying to point out that losses come in many forms that newbies who have never melted blame on the refiner,I don't think that in melting live scrap I have ever managed to get exactly the same amount out of a melt that went in,sometimes the assay rises enough to cover the melt loss but rarely and I'm sure the same applies to everyone who has melted jewellery that has been worn.4metals said:
HAuCl4
Well-known member
This is one of the reasons I melted jeweller's scrap in their shop with their torch in their crucible (sometimes I gifted them a crucible!). Some of them even asked to use the torch themselves!. They just could not believe where the difference in weight before and after went!. :lol:
With small miners was even worse. They assumed all the mercury had gone out with their roasting, but on melting sometimes the additional loss in weight approached 10%!.
With small miners was even worse. They assumed all the mercury had gone out with their roasting, but on melting sometimes the additional loss in weight approached 10%!.
Fournines
Well-known member
Barren Realms 007 said:
I don't think Afbrianh talking about me, I've never done any business with him.
