About Niton XL3t XRF Analyzer
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Hi Igor,
any xrf machine will read only surface if material is in solid form , so in order to have good test you have to grind surface, any coating any exposure to dust,oil,water ... will effect reading. in case of dust testing it will show to you just indications what may be in it but sometimes is not show to you correct reading ,there so many staff you should know, for instance , if you shot air it will show to you aluminum, if you shot tungsten it will show to you gold the same with mercury , if you do alloys it will show to you result with +/- 1% which is a lot for pm, ............... you need good training for juse of this machine.
regards ,
senad
any xrf machine will read only surface if material is in solid form , so in order to have good test you have to grind surface, any coating any exposure to dust,oil,water ... will effect reading. in case of dust testing it will show to you just indications what may be in it but sometimes is not show to you correct reading ,there so many staff you should know, for instance , if you shot air it will show to you aluminum, if you shot tungsten it will show to you gold the same with mercury , if you do alloys it will show to you result with +/- 1% which is a lot for pm, ............... you need good training for juse of this machine.
regards ,
senad
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Ssabovic.
Whilst I admit that you've got to take a bit of care dealing with the foibles of a handheld XRF- I think you're overstating the problems by quite an amount.
Jon
Whilst I admit that you've got to take a bit of care dealing with the foibles of a handheld XRF- I think you're overstating the problems by quite an amount.
Jon
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I don't agree. For the purposes which we would use one those limitations listed make little real difference.
An XRF has to be read within the parameters of what you are doing. You don't use an XRF to assay for PMs when they are in the raw product state in terms of ewaste. You use it to determine what is there. In terms of jewelry, the alloys are known and in the library already.
I agree they are not perfect. What I'm not agreeing with is the overstatement. I don't think a huge of training is required to be them to be useful.
An XRF has to be read within the parameters of what you are doing. You don't use an XRF to assay for PMs when they are in the raw product state in terms of ewaste. You use it to determine what is there. In terms of jewelry, the alloys are known and in the library already.
I agree they are not perfect. What I'm not agreeing with is the overstatement. I don't think a huge of training is required to be them to be useful.
Bator
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Thank you Respected guys for the advice.
Of course, I will learn, make mistakes and learn again, the only way to acquire mastery, I am ready for this.
But I want to hear a verdict from you, the conclusion - is the Niton XL3t XRF Analyzer a good device? reliable? (this particular model and this particular manufacturer) or on the market there are better analyzers in this price range between $ 30,000- $ 35,000?
Of course, I will learn, make mistakes and learn again, the only way to acquire mastery, I am ready for this.
But I want to hear a verdict from you, the conclusion - is the Niton XL3t XRF Analyzer a good device? reliable? (this particular model and this particular manufacturer) or on the market there are better analyzers in this price range between $ 30,000- $ 35,000?
For analyzing ore you need a library that knows about non-metals as sulfur and arsenic, or you will detect iridium when there's arsenic in the ore.
My experience is limited to playing around with Jon's XRF when I visited him. But I really want one myself. If you know the limitations it becomes a wonderful instrument. Just as stannous can follow gold hiding in solutions, an XRF can follow gold hiding in solids like slag, metal alloys and so on.
Sorry that I can't help you with a comparison with other systems.
Göran
My experience is limited to playing around with Jon's XRF when I visited him. But I really want one myself. If you know the limitations it becomes a wonderful instrument. Just as stannous can follow gold hiding in solutions, an XRF can follow gold hiding in solids like slag, metal alloys and so on.
Sorry that I can't help you with a comparison with other systems.
Göran
In specific reply to Bator.
For analysis of ORE, you are using it not to identify actual composition of ore, but to provide qualitative assessments of ore, based upon quantitative traditional fire assay. So as long as you have the library that says ore prepared to this particle size, with this pretreatment method, that analysis with XRF says is ABC is known by fire assay to have X PPM Au. That is, it is NOT a quantitative analysis of the ore. Sample preparation is extremely important, as is presentation and analysis of data. It is NOT replacing traditional assay by fire assay and quantitative chemistry or ICP.
For analysis of auto catalyst...exact same as ore. It's all about sample presentation and assay library. A world class analyst was using his extensive knowledge energy dispersive XRF to analyze automotive catalyst and only coming within 20% of actual PM content. His problem wasn't the XRF, but the library of samples he used to do the curve fitting. He wasn't a chemist...he was an XRF geek...a darn fine one. And keep in mind, even at 20% you are still going to be pretty close to the limitations of the machine on what is really a low grade material.
For analysis of prepared melts. Best method is pin sample from well mixed melt, rolled flat and polished with pumice. Build a library of known, independently assayed samples.
As far as just trusting the numbers on the screen...I wouldn't for anything other than prepared karat melts. I've seen variations as high as 10% on Pd in well a prepared sample. That was 10% higher than what was read on desktop energy dispersive as well as independent assay.
Niton has improved their library immensely from when it first came out, but initially it was missing key elements, like zinc in the jewelry assay. It is entirely limited by the knowledge you prepare yourself with, and the library of samples you have to compare the spectra to.
GIGO-Garbage in, garbage out. Put your time in to sample prep, and understand the limitations of the assay, and it will work well for you....expect it to replace a knowledgeable analyst, and you will not like it.
The most advantageous thing you can do is to understand the spectral resolution of the sensor, so that you can understand the overlaps, and what COULD be there. Knowledge of what IS LIKELY there is still key in interpreting data.
For analysis of ORE, you are using it not to identify actual composition of ore, but to provide qualitative assessments of ore, based upon quantitative traditional fire assay. So as long as you have the library that says ore prepared to this particle size, with this pretreatment method, that analysis with XRF says is ABC is known by fire assay to have X PPM Au. That is, it is NOT a quantitative analysis of the ore. Sample preparation is extremely important, as is presentation and analysis of data. It is NOT replacing traditional assay by fire assay and quantitative chemistry or ICP.
For analysis of auto catalyst...exact same as ore. It's all about sample presentation and assay library. A world class analyst was using his extensive knowledge energy dispersive XRF to analyze automotive catalyst and only coming within 20% of actual PM content. His problem wasn't the XRF, but the library of samples he used to do the curve fitting. He wasn't a chemist...he was an XRF geek...a darn fine one. And keep in mind, even at 20% you are still going to be pretty close to the limitations of the machine on what is really a low grade material.
For analysis of prepared melts. Best method is pin sample from well mixed melt, rolled flat and polished with pumice. Build a library of known, independently assayed samples.
As far as just trusting the numbers on the screen...I wouldn't for anything other than prepared karat melts. I've seen variations as high as 10% on Pd in well a prepared sample. That was 10% higher than what was read on desktop energy dispersive as well as independent assay.
Niton has improved their library immensely from when it first came out, but initially it was missing key elements, like zinc in the jewelry assay. It is entirely limited by the knowledge you prepare yourself with, and the library of samples you have to compare the spectra to.
GIGO-Garbage in, garbage out. Put your time in to sample prep, and understand the limitations of the assay, and it will work well for you....expect it to replace a knowledgeable analyst, and you will not like it.
The most advantageous thing you can do is to understand the spectral resolution of the sensor, so that you can understand the overlaps, and what COULD be there. Knowledge of what IS LIKELY there is still key in interpreting data.
Also consider your use.
If my use was strictly laboratory based, I'd rather buy a used desktop unit in same price range. Spectral resolution is much better. Not sure how well set Russia is for having an on site repair technician either. When considering any machine, as specifically about cost of replacement and calibration of xray tube, photomultiplier tube, or most expensive PC board within machine by qualified technician.
If my use was portable...then obviously the handheld. Advantage here is that it can also be easily shipped back to factory for repair...this keeps cost of repairs lower.
If my use was strictly laboratory based, I'd rather buy a used desktop unit in same price range. Spectral resolution is much better. Not sure how well set Russia is for having an on site repair technician either. When considering any machine, as specifically about cost of replacement and calibration of xray tube, photomultiplier tube, or most expensive PC board within machine by qualified technician.
If my use was portable...then obviously the handheld. Advantage here is that it can also be easily shipped back to factory for repair...this keeps cost of repairs lower.
Bator
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snoman701, Thank you for the detailed answer.
Yes, of course we need this device for a preliminary analysis, to understand what is in this or that material. Next is a chemical analysis.
The most important thing is that here I was confirmed about the positive features of Niton. Next we will test, compare, draw conclusions.
Thank you all for your answers.
Thanks everyone!
Yes, of course we need this device for a preliminary analysis, to understand what is in this or that material. Next is a chemical analysis.
The most important thing is that here I was confirmed about the positive features of Niton. Next we will test, compare, draw conclusions.
Thank you all for your answers.
Thanks everyone!
Bator
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Personally unless I've got a copper plate as background I ignore everything below a certain percentage.
Bator
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As an example in my picture above:
This is an AuNi alloy. However, the display has a lot of things, but this is not there. Pd, Rh, Ru is definitely not in this alloy. Some dirt gives a similar spectrum and Niton reads incorrectly. We simply do not pay attention to this. But this is not critical, the main thing is it gives indicators for the main metals in the alloy .. And then, in any case, a chemical or thermal process.
This is an AuNi alloy. However, the display has a lot of things, but this is not there. Pd, Rh, Ru is definitely not in this alloy. Some dirt gives a similar spectrum and Niton reads incorrectly. We simply do not pay attention to this. But this is not critical, the main thing is it gives indicators for the main metals in the alloy .. And then, in any case, a chemical or thermal process.
Do keep in mind that that thing shoots xrays....looks like there is someone sitting on the other side of the room. (Probably after measurement taken)
I see a lot of people holding a part with their fingers...chronic exposure is no joke. Slows down healing of little cuts and scrapes. Decalcifies bones. Cancer. Blah blah blah.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I see a lot of people holding a part with their fingers...chronic exposure is no joke. Slows down healing of little cuts and scrapes. Decalcifies bones. Cancer. Blah blah blah.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Muratthechemist
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We have also same device, but you need to install modes, modes can read catalyst, mining, precious metal, soils etc. you will measure at ''mining cu/zn'' mode talk with your manufacturer.
