caustic soda

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superten67

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
80
could someone tell me please that not in my wildest dreams will caustic soda a disolve gold?
i must be the unluckiest person where buying chemicals is concerned but as you know here in the uk we're not allowed to have so much as a sharpened stick as a private individual.
but i dont understand how i can clean my drains if the chemicals are so weak i could wash my face in em.
i have put some touch pad boards in a saucepan with 500grams of caustic soda(as we call it)and after boiling it for ten minutes its just about comming off.
but the gold is very discoloured and looks to be gone.
but not like in laser steves video.
im at a loss does the stuff come in different strengths?if so ive never known it in all he years ive used it for drains and dissolving hair blockages etc.
any ideas guys?
 
To be fair it's easier to get chemicals here in the UK than in the USA or Canada, you just have to search for suppliers in your area, use a google search I'm sure you will find someone.
As to losing your gold in caustic no it won't happen but it will attack zinc and aluminium and perhaps if it's lost it's strength then it's plating back out of your solution and coating your gold.
 
cheers nick i think thats whats happened its stripped lots of it but there are large patches that are un stripped im getting well fed up of it.
i bought it from a bargain shop in burton so as you say chances are it might be past its sell by date.
i know some chemicals degrade i know explosives do so i suppose everything must have a life but just never crossed my mind.
where in brum you from mate?
 
Caustic soda, Lye, sodium hydroxide, NaOH, is a very strong base the opposite of acid, it will not dissolve gold, some base metals can react with it to form oxides and hydroxides of these metals, or the metals may break down like solder.

Caustic soda can react with oils, and other organic material, like oils in your skin or hands making soap out of your skin, this is why when getting it on your hands they feel very slippery, and come so clean, dissolving your skin making soap, in the old days when it took many months at sea to travel, if someone died on ship they could dump the mans body over board into the sea, to prevent disease on the ship, but if they wished to keep the man and bury him on land, they would pack his body in a wooden barrel of caustic soda, the caustic soda would make soap out of his flesh, they could dump this soap overboard and take his bones to land for burial, caustic soda made from leaching wood ash, and animal fat (hog fat) was how soap was made it makes a very good soap when just slightly caustic, I have used wood ash caustic soda when making leather out of animal hides, the hide soaked in caustic soda make's the hair and fur very easy to remove from the raw hide, it also breaks down the fat and scarf skin making scraping the raw hide clean an easier chore.

The caustic soda can get under the solder mask (green coating) on circuit boards and loosen it.

The gold discolor you see is most likely just base metal oxides, or some other material, from the circuit board coating the gold not dissolving the gold, I suppose with very thin plating the base metal under the gold could oxidize and discolor the metal and make the gold look different, or even dislodge some gold as fine powder into the solution, but the gold would not dissolve into solution.

For a metal to dissolve into solution it must lose electrons, sodium hydroxide cannot take an electron from gold, the gold is too un-reactive.

Sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) if you get it in your eye, will easily dissolve, or cook the eye, and blind you, eye protection is a must.

Caustic soda NaOH the opposite of an acid a very strong base, which can burn your skin making it into soap by dissolving the oil out of it, if mixed with a strong acid like HCl in correct proportions until the solution becomes neutral pH7 will make sodium chloride NaCl (what we eat as table salt).

NaOH + HCl --> NaCl + H2O

Since the gold will not dissolve but some of it may loosen as fine powder, I would stir the boards in solution and rinse them off with a spray bottle back into the caustic solution, let your caustic solution settle well, decant the solution (use or save this solution to treat your acidic waste with), now carefully adding acid to the remaining powers and materials in the bottom of the bucket neutralizing the powders to salt pH 7, let settle decant salt water, then use boiling water to dissolve salt, and any water soluble oxides, or chlorides (like lead chloride soluble in hot water, not very soluble in cold water), this would leave some of the less reactive metals, any gold or silver that may have dislodged mixed with solder mask flakes or other trash, these can be incinerated, cooled, boiled in HCl, to help remove tin and other soluble chloride metals from these powders, boiling hot water washes will help to clean these up further removing lead chloride, and other base metals, letting the solution settle well before decanting but keeping solution hot (silver chloride is not soluble in hot water, but is fluffy and easily floats around, so keeping the water wash as hot as possible and letting silver settle before decanting the lead chloride), if washes were colored strongly I would repeat acid and water washes, this should leave you with any of the more valuable powders if they were dislodged from the original material.

Some times there are ways to make your own acid or chemical you need, if you cannot get it, from chemicals you can get.
Just a few examples:
HCl acid can be made from salt and sulfuric acid.
Nitric acid can be made from sulfuric acid and nitrate fertilizer or stump remover.
Ferrous sulfate (copperas) to precipitate or test for gold can be made from Iron and sulfuric acid.
Poor mans aqua regia made from HCl and nitrate fertilizer.
Ammonium chloride can be from ammonia and HCl.
Actually sulfuric acid can be made from rocks :lol: , but most countries use batteries and sell sulfuric acid.

The work around methods are very useful and can sometimes be preferred for some materials, like the copper II chloride leach for copper, or the HCl sodium hypochlorite to dissolve gold.
 
Many processes are slow to complete especially work around ones but take advantage of that by reading about your next steps and getting them fixed in your mind so your prepared to get to the end without problems. For many finding material containing values to work with is the biggest problem these days especially as a hobbyist or home refiner where there's no economy of scale, to make it pay at best or at least cover costs at worst, so if you have that covered your lucky.
Getting all the chemicals you need is fairly easy here in the UK especially if you explain to the suppliers exactly what your doing with them and many can be very helpful about other supplies such as lab glass, filter papers and the other pieces of equipment that we use that they might not sell, some sell all the items you need.
One good supplier of various chemicals and equipment is Scientific and Chemical 01902 402402 they are in the midlands and have a counter service where you can collect your materials or free delivery depending on a minimum order of around £100 if I remember correctly.
Melting dishes, crucibles and other refactory materials are eaily available here in the jewellery quarter in Birmingham during the week but most offer a postal service, Cousins and H.S.Walsh are two that leap to mind.
Hope this helps and keep at it and do your studying here on the forum, if it was easy everyone would be refiners.
 
tell me about it,ive done a few cock ups but managed to pull it back so im a bit more carefull now.
where are you from nick ?i used to live in erdington and walmley and how do you do your refining is ita hobby or do you do it for a job?
 
My experience lately has been that caustic soda can damage gold plating.
Chat gpt states this:
Caustic soda, also known as sodium hydroxide (NaOH), can dissolve or loosen gold plating under certain conditions. Sodium hydroxide is a strong base and can react with various metals, including gold. However, the reaction rate and effectiveness of dissolving or loosening gold plating with caustic soda depend on several factors:

  1. Concentration: The concentration of the caustic soda solution can affect its ability to dissolve or loosen gold plating. Higher concentrations generally have a more significant effect.
  2. Temperature: Elevated temperatures can accelerate chemical reactions, including the dissolution of gold plating. Heating the caustic soda solution can enhance its effectiveness.
  3. Duration of exposure: The longer the gold-plated object remains in contact with the caustic soda solution, the more time the reaction has to take place and potentially dissolve or loosen the gold plating.
It's important to note that while caustic soda can interact with gold plating, its effectiveness may vary depending on the thickness and composition of the plating, as well as the specific conditions of the process. Additionally, working with caustic soda requires caution due to its corrosive nature, and proper safety measures should be followed.

And here's a picture of some phone boards i left in like, 20% caustic soda for a week to loosen comformal coating so that the CuCl2 bath will work faster. But only some, and the more modern ones with thinner plating seems affected
 
My experience lately has been that caustic soda can damage gold plating.
Chat gpt states this:
Caustic soda, also known as sodium hydroxide (NaOH), can dissolve or loosen gold plating under certain conditions. Sodium hydroxide is a strong base and can react with various metals, including gold. However, the reaction rate and effectiveness of dissolving or loosening gold plating with caustic soda depend on several factors:

  1. Concentration: The concentration of the caustic soda solution can affect its ability to dissolve or loosen gold plating. Higher concentrations generally have a more significant effect.
  2. Temperature: Elevated temperatures can accelerate chemical reactions, including the dissolution of gold plating. Heating the caustic soda solution can enhance its effectiveness.
  3. Duration of exposure: The longer the gold-plated object remains in contact with the caustic soda solution, the more time the reaction has to take place and potentially dissolve or loosen the gold plating.
It's important to note that while caustic soda can interact with gold plating, its effectiveness may vary depending on the thickness and composition of the plating, as well as the specific conditions of the process. Additionally, working with caustic soda requires caution due to its corrosive nature, and proper safety measures should be followed.

And here's a picture of some phone boards i left in like, 20% caustic soda for a week to loosen comformal coating so that the CuCl2 bath will work faster. But only some, and the more modern ones with thinner plating seems affected

Caustic soda can dissolve many metals including Tin and Aluminum.
Maybe even Nickel to some degree.
Such, it may loosen some thin plating, it should however not touch the Gold by itself.
It will also dissolve/damage the coating of the PCBs and as a result maybe dislodge some of the plating that way.
It is in many ways quite forgiving to work with since it don’t offgas or create unpleadant vapours.
On the other hand, it have harsher biological impact than for instance HCl in many cases.
So proper protection is paramount, especially eye protection.
 
My experience lately has been that caustic soda can damage gold plating.
Chat gpt states this:
Caustic soda, also known as sodium hydroxide (NaOH), can dissolve or loosen gold plating under certain conditions. Sodium hydroxide is a strong base and can react with various metals, including gold. However, the reaction rate and effectiveness of dissolving or loosening gold plating with caustic soda depend on several factors:

  1. Concentration: The concentration of the caustic soda solution can affect its ability to dissolve or loosen gold plating. Higher concentrations generally have a more significant effect.
  2. Temperature: Elevated temperatures can accelerate chemical reactions, including the dissolution of gold plating. Heating the caustic soda solution can enhance its effectiveness.
  3. Duration of exposure: The longer the gold-plated object remains in contact with the caustic soda solution, the more time the reaction has to take place and potentially dissolve or loosen the gold plating.
It's important to note that while caustic soda can interact with gold plating, its effectiveness may vary depending on the thickness and composition of the plating, as well as the specific conditions of the process. Additionally, working with caustic soda requires caution due to its corrosive nature, and proper safety measures should be followed.

And here's a picture of some phone boards i left in like, 20% caustic soda for a week to loosen comformal coating so that the CuCl2 bath will work faster. But only some, and the more modern ones with thinner plating seems affected

From my experience, chat GPT does not have (maybe yet) the reliable chemical knowlede which equalizes the knowhow of some forum members
 
Chat GPT is garbage. A lawyer was recently stung by it's halucinations, quoting decisions and laws that did not actually exist. (and a lot of them!) It's only slightly better than drawing letters from a large bag, you might get Shakespeare, but far more likely you'll get junk. AI is still fairly stupid, tools like chat GPT are just built on massive, massive libraries of words to see what are related and "guessable". They are very good at halucinating, you'll probably get similiar accuracy if you let your' dog "help" you with research, though at least your' dog won't hallucinate.
 
If you look at a Pourbaix diagram for gold it shows that gold can be solubilised in water if the pH is high enough, generally greater than 13.
This is not a rapid reaction but the rate is increased by raising caustic concentration and temperature.
I would assume that in cases where gold is lost in high caustic solutions, most members do not, as a matter of course, check pH levels of the solution.
This is not a commercial leaching method, the difficulties with containing the strong caustic level and the OHS problems make sure of that.
Deano
 
Caustic soda, Lye, sodium hydroxide, NaOH, is a very strong base the opposite of acid, it will not dissolve gold, some base metals can react with it to form oxides and hydroxides of these metals, or the metals may break down like solder.

Caustic soda can react with oils, and other organic material, like oils in your skin or hands making soap out of your skin, this is why when getting it on your hands they feel very slippery, and come so clean, dissolving your skin making soap, in the old days when it took many months at sea to travel, if someone died on ship they could dump the mans body over board into the sea, to prevent disease on the ship, but if they wished to keep the man and bury him on land, they would pack his body in a wooden barrel of caustic soda, the caustic soda would make soap out of his flesh, they could dump this soap overboard and take his bones to land for burial, caustic soda made from leaching wood ash, and animal fat (hog fat) was how soap was made it makes a very good soap when just slightly caustic, I have used wood ash caustic soda when making leather out of animal hides, the hide soaked in caustic soda make's the hair and fur very easy to remove from the raw hide, it also breaks down the fat and scarf skin making scraping the raw hide clean an easier chore.

The caustic soda can get under the solder mask (green coating) on circuit boards and loosen it.

The gold discolor you see is most likely just base metal oxides, or some other material, from the circuit board coating the gold not dissolving the gold, I suppose with very thin plating the base metal under the gold could oxidize and discolor the metal and make the gold look different, or even dislodge some gold as fine powder into the solution, but the gold would not dissolve into solution.

For a metal to dissolve into solution it must lose electrons, sodium hydroxide cannot take an electron from gold, the gold is too un-reactive.

Sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) if you get it in your eye, will easily dissolve, or cook the eye, and blind you, eye protection is a must.

Caustic soda NaOH the opposite of an acid a very strong base, which can burn your skin making it into soap by dissolving the oil out of it, if mixed with a strong acid like HCl in correct proportions until the solution becomes neutral pH7 will make sodium chloride NaCl (what we eat as table salt).

NaOH + HCl --> NaCl + H2O

Since the gold will not dissolve but some of it may loosen as fine powder, I would stir the boards in solution and rinse them off with a spray bottle back into the caustic solution, let your caustic solution settle well, decant the solution (use or save this solution to treat your acidic waste with), now carefully adding acid to the remaining powers and materials in the bottom of the bucket neutralizing the powders to salt pH 7, let settle decant salt water, then use boiling water to dissolve salt, and any water soluble oxides, or chlorides (like lead chloride soluble in hot water, not very soluble in cold water), this would leave some of the less reactive metals, any gold or silver that may have dislodged mixed with solder mask flakes or other trash, these can be incinerated, cooled, boiled in HCl, to help remove tin and other soluble chloride metals from these powders, boiling hot water washes will help to clean these up further removing lead chloride, and other base metals, letting the solution settle well before decanting but keeping solution hot (silver chloride is not soluble in hot water, but is fluffy and easily floats around, so keeping the water wash as hot as possible and letting silver settle before decanting the lead chloride), if washes were colored strongly I would repeat acid and water washes, this should leave you with any of the more valuable powders if they were dislodged from the original material.

Some times there are ways to make your own acid or chemical you need, if you cannot get it, from chemicals you can get.
Just a few examples:
HCl acid can be made from salt and sulfuric acid.
Nitric acid can be made from sulfuric acid and nitrate fertilizer or stump remover.
Ferrous sulfate (copperas) to precipitate or test for gold can be made from Iron and sulfuric acid.
Poor mans aqua regia made from HCl and nitrate fertilizer.
Ammonium chloride can be from ammonia and HCl.
Actually sulfuric acid can be made from rocks :lol: , but most countries use batteries and sell sulfuric acid.

The work around methods are very useful and can sometimes be preferred for some materials, like the copper II chloride leach for copper, or the HCl sodium hypochlorite to dissolve gold.
Hi Butcher
HCL can be made for Salt and Sulphuric Acid?
Which in turn will dissolve Gold..
MM
 
Why can I not ask somebody about Salt and Sulphuric acid making a form of HCL?
Is this against forum rules?
 
Why can I not ask somebody about Salt and Sulphuric acid making a form of HCL?
Is this against forum rules?
Nothing against the rules, you asked Butcher so we are waiting for his input.
But then why not just buy proper HCl?
 
Because the guy stated that Salt and Sulphuric Acid could make HCL, my question/communication was to discuss ratios and what examples the member may have of this combination making a form of HCL?
Somehow that angers you?
 
The Forum members and my research has got me to the following

Some gold and lead in the filter (lead paste)
Traces of gold in solution??
Some dirty gold sand
And a reusable AP

And you keep breaking my back
 

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Because the guy stated that Salt and Sulphuric Acid could make HCL, my question/communication was to discuss ratios and what examples the member may have of this combination making a form of HCL?
Somehow that angers you?
No, but You got annoyed that none answered in a short time.
What annoys me is that you have not done your homework and jumps to unfounded conclusions.
 
Sulfuric acid is more dangerous than nitric or hydrochloric. The stronger the sulfuric, the more dangerous it is. If you heat it, even on low heat, it becomes more dangerous by multiple’s. Sulfuric requires gloves rated for it and often will burn right through the more common found safety gloves. Cost per gallon in small quantities is higher than hydrochloric as well so you might as well use hydrochloric acid. It is more common and avoids many of the head aches of mixing up home grown recipes. And that comes from a guy that likes to make many of his own chemicals. Hydrochloric is just not one of them, it is to common and to cheap. Now, as butcher mentioned, if you lived where it was unavailable maybe. Learn to use the chemical properly, when and where, then learn to make them later for gaining knowledge of the chemistry involved.
 
Hi
Im based in the UK,

I believe there are changes to the distribution of HCL in domestic products such as Knockout sink unblocker most hardware stores have not been able to purchase Knockout Sink Unblocker as new formula is being ready for release.. We can get borax and sulphuric but low percentage 5-10%. It is in a few limescale removers over here.
I will have to go wholesale for a large amount of hcl although i am not comfortable with anything north of 2-3ltr, storage issues.. I am alumni at a local university, with lab access, this may be an option.
 

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