Chemicals and process

[worker0]

Helloo dear friends. I have few questions, I know they are answered allready but not completely.

I can get following chemicals:

Nitric acid - 59%
Hydrochloric acid - 31% or 36%
SMB

Is this all enough, for recovery?

How to mix chemicals ?

"Aqua regia is a mixture of hydrochloric acid (HCl) and nitric acid (HNO3) at a ratio of either 3:1 or 4:1." - wikipedia

is it same ratio 3:1 / 4:1 for booth acid "purity" ? example Is there any differecne between 31% HCL and 59% Nitric acid and 36% HCL and 59% Nitric acid? still ratio same 3:1 ? What if I get strongers acids example 98% Nitric acid?

What if I add more SMB in aqua regia then it is needed ?

I have more than enough material for recovery for free ( "work" in IT )
PS sorry on my bad English, and for "non chemistry" questions. Thank you again.

 

[canedane]

Welcome to the forum Worker0.
If you are here for the money, sell your stash.
If you are here for learning to recover gold silver and palladium, you have to study the forum how to recover PM, and learn about safetely and how to handle your waist cemicals.
Please forget about Youtube videos, things are not so easy, you must learn and understand what you are doing before you start doing anything.
I sell 99% of my stash to proffesionels, and i make good money. The last % is my hobby.

 

[butcher]

worker0,
Welcome to the forum.
I can recover gold and refine it without making aqua regia.
You do not need aqua regia to recover gold, you need to spend time educating yourself.

Aqua regia is used to refine gold, using aqua regia as a recovery method is normally a very bad idea.

Just because we can get chemicals, it does not mean that we can use them safely, or recover gold with them.

For the time being, I would forget about using aqua regia, or buying any chemicals, or putting acid to any metals, until you gain an understanding of the dangers involved, and understand the reactions...

After studying the dangers and understanding how to protect yourself and others, study how to deal with the toxic metal solutions properly.

Study how to separate and prepare your scrap for the desired recovery process.

Then study the different recovery methods like the cupric chloride leach, parting gold with HNO3, ferric chloride leach...

Hoke's book will not deal much with electronic scrap but will give you an understanding of the refining processes of the precious metals.

 

[worker0]

I can recover gold and refine it without making aqua regia.
You do not need aqua regia to recover gold, you need to spend time educating yourself.

I know. AR proccess is easyest way for me because I can obtian only these chemicalls in my country.

Just because we can get chemicals, it does not mean that we can use them safely, or recover gold with them.

I know that it is dangerous, but I know for dangers and precautions. Chemicals I can obtian is lab grade.

For the time being, I would forget about using aqua regia, or buying any chemicals, or putting acid to any metals, until you gain an understanding of the dangers involved, and understand the reactions..

I understand reaction, but Im worried is process and ratio same for different acid grades in %. Is the process same?

After studying the dangers and understanding how to protect yourself and others, study how to deal with the toxic metal solutions properly.
Study how to separate and prepare your scrap for the desired recovery process.

Allready done.

Then study the different recovery methods like the cupric chloride leach, parting gold with HNO3, ferric chloride leach..

I know that there is more environment friendly processes but chemicals is impossible to obtian,


Thank you on advices. I just wanted to make some questions clear. I was reading and educationg myself more than 2 years before making decidion to make extraction. So can anyone make me thesse questions clear.

Therefore, is the ratio same ( I guess it is not ) for different acid concentrations, and what if I put more SMB than it is needed.

Just question: What is used to recover palladium, silver and copper from AR ?

 

[butcher]

HCl will precipitate silver, DMG will complex with palladium.

Copper will cement gold silver and palladium.

SMB can reduce other metals besides gold, it can reduce cupric chloride into cuprous chloride...

Aqua regia 3:1 or 4;! will normally leave unused nitric that will prevent you from getting gold until the nitrates and free nitric is eliminated, for this reason, we limit the use of nitric acid with small additions...


If you wish to learn these skills you must study, otherwise, you are putting yourself and others in harm...

Now how would you safely deal with the toxic waste produced by the above reactions?
If you cannot answer this question you will not need any HCL or nitric acid, as you would just make a mess and have no idea of what to do with it...

 

[g_axelsson]

Study Hoke's book.
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/Hoke

There are a number of acquaintance tests in it to let you get a feeling for the reactions.
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/Hoke_acquaintance_experiments
Buy some scrap silver and gold to run the experiments with. It can seem expensive to do that, but if you master refining you will still have the metals when you are done experimenting. See it as an investment.

And remember, that book was written for almost a hundred years ago so safety wasn't really as high as today. Do small experiments outside or in a fume hood.

Finally, you haven't lost any gold before you throw away any solutions or solid material. Learn to test with stannous, that is the eye of a refiner.
(Hoke wrote a book about testing too.)

This is far from a complete instruction to how to learn to refine, but this page is too short to write everything down.

Göran

 

[worker0]

HCl will precipitate silver, DMG will complex with palladium.

Copper will cement gold silver and palladium.

SMB can reduce other metals besides gold, it can reduce cupric chloride into cuprous chloride...

Aqua regia 3:1 or 4;! will normally leave unused nitric that will prevent you from getting gold until the nitrates and free nitric is eliminated, for this reason, we limit the use of nitric acid with small additions...


If you wish to learn these skills you must study, otherwise, you are putting yourself and others in harm...

Now how would you safely deal with the toxic waste produced by the above reactions?
If you cannot answer this question you will not need any HCL or nitric acid, as you would just make a mess and have no idea of what to do with it...

My friend works in company for chemicall and other toxic waste dispossal.

So basicly, if I put too much Nitric acid there will bi possibility that SMB cant make gold "sludge" at the bottom until is free? Which acid concentrations to use or concentration does not make big deal?

I have "broken" gold and silver, silver is 925. To be honest I was never interested for silver refining until now.

So for recovery of silver i dont need AR process? Which metals also SMB recover from AR? How do I eleminate free nitric? With NAOH or saturated sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) in water until pH is neutral and then add SMB?

Is it problem if I put condensators from MOBO which contain other metals or SMB recover only gold?

Stannous chloride - Im know for it and how to prepare.

Can I use AR process for silver recovery from X ray images, since I saw the video of some dude doing it with bleach. Im say again. It is hard for me to obtian chemicals, AR process is easyest way.
PS: If you are not happy with my answer for waste dissposal, if it depends on me I would neutralise acids then dispose.

 

[g_axelsson]

Right now you don't know even the most basic steps. Read Hoke's book first!

Göran

 

[worker0]

Im just confused, because about 30 Youtube videos, do the same way.

Cover material with HCL, add Nitric acid until all gold dissolve. Test with stannous chloride, and add SMB. On few videos, they neutralised with NaOH, and then added SMB.

Whats wrong with booth processes ( with or without NaOH )?

Please can yuo tell me where Im wrong in post before this post? Thank you very much!

 

[butcher]

I watched 30 videos about going to the moon, not much to it, you just have to put a man in a vehicle and shoot the vehicle in the air on a trajectory towards the moon.

The videos make it look so easy, although I think I may have to gain a little more understanding of the process before I feel safe enough to strap myself to one of those rockets, there may be somethings I do not understand. why would those scientists have to spend so much time studying to learn these skills if it so easy?

You can watch a million videos and still not understand, the videos are helpful for those who understand what is going on and the problems involved...
But they would not be very helpful to accomplish your goals if you do not have the understanding of the basic principles of recovery or of refining the precious metals...

 

[worker0]

I have basic knowledge of process and just ask for some details which is not covered. It is not easy i know, so I came to forum to ask about details and other stuff. I dont want to destroy gold or harm environment. Tkanks

 

[butcher]

worker0 ,

The devil is in the details, that is the reason you will need to do some homework, you think you have a basic knowledge of the process, but in reality, you know almost nothing about this science.

It is complicated science but anyone willing to spend their time in a little study can begin to learn.

Hoke's book is a good beginning, along with the forum information and help from members.

Here members are trying to help you get started learning for yourself, we cannot help someone who cannot help himself or refuses to learn on his own)...



Whoever seen in a video adding NaOH before SMB they did not know what they were doing.
NaOH will not remove nitric acid or its salts, but it will convert nitric to nitrate salts that if reacidified will reform nitric acid back into solution.


Sodium hydroxide and HCl acid will make table salt dissolved in water.
NaOH + HCl --> NaCl + H2O
Sodium hydroxide and nitric acid will form sodium nitrates and water.
NaOH + HNO3 --> NaNO3 + H2O

Now if we added acid to these salts in solution.

Sodium nitrate and hydrochloric acid produces nitric acid and sodium chloride salt.
NaNO3 + HCl --> HNO3 + NaCl

The reformed nitric acid and chloride salts reform aqua regia.
HNO3 + NaCl + gold --> dissolved gold in solution

 

[worker0]

Oh I just now realised what I answered.

For elemination of free nitric:
Answer is urea instead NaOH, sorry I was on my job in the moment of typing replay.
After adding urea, stannous chloride test wont work anymore...

Right?

 

[butcher]

No,

Urea and nitric acid form a dangerous compound called urea nitrate.

Urea does not neutralize nitric acid or remove free nitric acid from solution.

Urea does not remove nitrate salts that will reform free nitric acid upon addition of an acid (such as later use of HCl or washing with acids (or H2SO4 additions to remove lead)...

Urea in small additions will remove the NOx gas which can be used to purify nitric acid, but it will not destroy the pure nitric acid, in larger doses you could form urea nitrate.

Urea can be dangerous and is basically useless in most instances as described in most literature to remove free nitric or nitrates from solution.

Read Hoke's book learn to remove free nitric through several evaporations with additions of acids to reform nitrate salts back into free nitric acid and thus NOx gas (with acid addition between the three evaporation cycles).

Read a few posts on the forum about sulfamic acid.

Harold's method additions of pure gold.

I like using a combination of all three of these methods.

But only when necessary or when I have overused nitric acid, to begin with for some reason.

Before removing free nitric acid the stannous chloride will not reduce the gold or redissolves it, so the test will not work, the nitric keeps the gold oxidized...

Stannous chloride SnCl2 must reduce the gold ions (giving the gold ion's electrons) to form metal atoms in solution, the stannous is oxidized to stannic chloride ions upon giving up electrons to the gold, the gold atoms can come into contact with each other in the beginning making small clusters of gold atoms, these clusters grow to a certain size (indicated by the color), at this certain size they become polarized and begin to repel each other so they can not come into contact with each other and grow larger, they will not precipitate as the clusters themselves keep the solution in constant motion...

Urea will not affect the test except that it does not work to remove free nitric acid...




Study it is all here for free for anyone wishing to learn, we can assist but we cannot hold hands to drag you into understanding how to recover and refine these metals safely.

 

[worker0]

Thank you very much,
Last night I was looking for video of process with Urea. Guy did 2 batchesto show difference if urea is added and without ureas, so Im been confused. After adding urea stannous test didnt work anymore. I will post video if I found them. Just to hear your opinnion.

What is wrong with this process? Speccialy with second wideo??
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwGO7DiZx-8[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZBlSH3-zGE[/youtube]

 

[butcher]

I did not watch all of the videos, I did watch part of the one using urea.

I did notice in the video he was making stannous chloride but in the video, the formula shown in the caption said adding CnCL2 which is cyanide chloride, an obvious mistake.

I also noted he had a fairly pure somewhat concentrated gold chloride solution with almost no base metals involved.
Notice he got a positive reaction with the stannous chloride test before adding urea or SMB, this showed me he did not have much free nitric in solution at that point, before adding urea (my assumption here is he did not overuse nitric acid in the beginning) and most likely had mainly NOx gases and almost no free nitric acid in solution, otherwise the stannous chloride test would not have worked. In this case, urea was effective in removing NOx gases from the solution, because he did not have free HNO3 in solution...

Later he used excess SMB to remove the NOx gases from solution (notice the deadly red cloud of gas).



Overall the video looked very well made by someone who knew what he was doing saftey-wise.

But this video still does not change the facts, that urea will not neutralize aqua regia or remove free nitric acid from solution, it can remove NOx gases from the solution.

 

[butcher]

Urea
the formula's for urea:
NH2CONH2, or CH4N2O, or CO(NH2)2

Urea CO(NH2)2 and nitric acid HNO3 form a dangerous explosive compound of urea nitrate (NH2)2COHNO3.
Note this is a nitrate salt that if acidified will reform nitric acid...

CO(NH2)2 + HNO3 --> (NH2)2COHNO3

Urea and HCl acid can form ammonium ions and chloride ions in solution (ammonium chloride) and evolves carbon dioxide gas:

CO(NH2)2 + 2HCl + H2O --> 2NH4 + 2Cl + CO2

Nitrogen dioxide (one of the NOx gases) and urea give off carbon dioxide and nitrogen gases.
Here is where urea can remove the NOx gas from solution, where there is no free nitric acid.

CO(NH2)2 + 2NO2 + 2H+ --> 3H2O + CO2 + 2N2

CO(NH2)2 + 6NO2 --> 8H2O + 4CO2 + 7N2

 

[rucito]

After adding urea stannous test didnt work anymore.



No! After adding SMB stannous test didnt work anymore.

 

[butcher]

The stannous chloride test for gold will not work If the gold in the solution cannot be reduced to metal, because of excess oxidizers such as free nitric acid.

The stannous chloride test for gold will not work If the gold is already reduced to metal, such as the case with colloidal gold in solution.

The stannous chloride test for gold will not work If there is no gold left in solution.

Ferrous sulfate crystal (will work in a test where SnCl2 will not).

Ferrous sulfate can remove free nitric acid during the test, and so the test will work to test for gold in instances where stannous chloride may not.


4HNO3 + 3FeSO4 --> Fe(NO3)3 + Fe(SO4)3 + NO + 2H2O


Likewise, ferrous sulfate can work, where SMB may not, to precipitate gold, where some free nitric acid may be involved.

 

[Cpp_2020]

Hello all,

My name is sandy. I am helping a friend process gold sponge. I am very new to this and could use some help,please. He asked me to look up where in the process, after filtering does one add ammonia or ammonium chloride? As well as the use of urea and difference between urea and ammonia or ammonium chlorides? Just curious is ammonium chloride interchangeable with urea. Since use of hydrochloride acid and urea creates ammonium chloride, yes maybe. Help.