Complete Greenhorn...

[Drake]

Hi,
I am completely new at this. Thought I understood the process and clearly I do not.

I tried to refine some gold from old watchs, necklaces, ect. The plating was any where from 10k to 18k. A nice little pile of it. I melted it down first, dropped it in water in drips to make shot. I purchased the JSP kit from Amazon and followed the sh!+ directions that came with it. With no success. With good reasons, my lack of knowledge. Then I was absolutely frustrated and have add god knows how much of everything now (nitrate substitute, hci, urea, smb) and dont know what to do with this situation now. I would really appreciate any help and patience I hope to receive from this group. This topic and skill truly truy intrigues me and I would like to learn how to do it. If they would have ever made chemistry so cool in school I probably would have went that way much earlier.

Can you pls help. I am hoping someone would be kind enough to walk me thru how I can fix this mistake and then be even more generous by giving me a step by step instructions on how to process Au bearing ore with the Aqua Regia process as well.

Thank you for you consideration.

 

[eaglekeeper]

By plating, did you mean 10K to 18K gold filled (GF or RGF) or did you mean 10K to 18K alloyed gold?. GF and alloyed gold require a different process..... to start we need that clarification.

 

[Drake]

Sry once again thank you ahead of time for your patience. What does RGF mean? It was mostly old pocket watches and wrist watchs. I am assuming they were plated, but i really dont know.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hi,
I am completely new at this. Thought I understood the process and clearly I do not.

I tried to refine some gold from old watchs, necklaces, ect. The plating was any where from 10k to 18k. A nice little pile of it. I melted it down first, dropped it in water in drips to make shot. I purchased the JSP kit from Amazon and followed the sh!+ directions that came with it. With no success. With good reasons, my lack of knowledge. Then I was absolutely frustrated and have add god knows how much of everything now (nitrate substitute, hci, urea, smb) and dont know what to do with this situation now. I would really appreciate any help and patience I hope to receive from this group. This topic and skill truly truy intrigues me and I would like to learn how to do it. If they would have ever made chemistry so cool in school I probably would have went that way much earlier.

Can you pls help. I am hoping someone would be kind enough to walk me thru how I can fix this mistake and then be even more generous by giving me a step by step instructions on how to process Au bearing ore with the Aqua Regia process as well.

Thank you for you consideration.

You have made a mess that is correct, but it should be possible to fix.
Your first mistake was plunging in without enough research.
This led to the next, GF is a thin layer of Gold filled with any kind of metal.
What we usually do is dissolve the filling metal first, this can be done with either Nitric or HCl.
Now that it is melted, I think the best now is to dissolve in HCl until no more reaction.
HCl are easy to find and cheap.
Nitric alone is harder to find and more expensive, and as long as there are no Tin in the alloy will do a better job.
It will dissolve the Silver in the alloy too.
This JSP kit is unknown to me, but these kits are ususally overpriced versions of over the counter chemicals.

 

[Drake]

You have made a mess that is correct, but it should be possible to fix.
Your first mistake was plunging in without enough research.
This led to the next, GF is a thin layer of Gold filled with any kind of metal.
What we usually do is dissolve the filling metal first, this can be done with either Nitric or HCl.
Now that it is melted, I think the best now is to dissolve in HCl until no more reaction.
HCl are easy to find and cheap.
Nitric alone is harder to find and more expensive, and as long as there are no Tin in the alloy will do a better job.
It will dissolve the Silver in the alloy too.
This JSP kit is unknown to me, but these kits are ususally overpriced versions of over the counter chemicals.

Hi Yggdrasil,

Thanks foe your reply. Yes your absolutely correct, I should not have jumped in with both feet. I definitely have that flaw. I have some hci, nitric acid substitute (sodium nitrate) , a little bit of sodium metabisulfite and some urea on hand. I am willing to aquire whatever else you would seem fit to use. I also have a few Pyrex gallon jugs and 6 500ml beakers and hot plate with mixer on hand.

Currently all of the solution is in a 5 gallon bucket, probably still has a lot of acid alive in it, overall with water there is around 3 gallons of solution. Ugh! I know my bad. Some of the acid is still alive because I Ran out of sodium bisulfate when i was trying to neutralize it yesterday. All my metal is in a gallon jar on the side. I have tested the solution by putting some on a white paper towel and then a drip of the test solution. There seems to be no color change. In the bucket the solution color is like aqua marine or oxidized copper color and on the paper towel its like yellow to neon green.

How would you recommend i should proceed?

 

[Drake]

You have made a mess that is correct, but it should be possible to fix.
Your first mistake was plunging in without enough research.
This led to the next, GF is a thin layer of Gold filled with any kind of metal.
What we usually do is dissolve the filling metal first, this can be done with either Nitric or HCl.
Now that it is melted, I think the best now is to dissolve in HCl until no more reaction.
HCl are easy to find and cheap.
Nitric alone is harder to find and more expensive, and as long as there are no Tin in the alloy will do a better job.
It will dissolve the Silver in the alloy too.
This JSP kit is unknown to me, but these kits are ususally overpriced versions of over the counter chemicals.

Sry! The nitric acid substitute is sodium nitrate.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hi Yggdrasil,

Thanks foe your reply. Yes your absolutely correct, I should not have jumped in with both feet. I definitely have that flaw. I have some hci, nitric acid substitute (sodium nitrate) , a little bit of sodium metabisulfite and some urea on hand. I am willing to aquire whatever else you would seem fit to use. I also have a few Pyrex gallon jugs and 6 500ml beakers and hot plate with mixer on hand.

Currently all of the solution is in a 5 gallon bucket, probably still has a lot of acid alive in it, overall with water there is around 3 gallons of solution. Ugh! I know my bad. Some of the acid is still alive because I Ran out of sodium bisulfate when i was trying to neutralize it yesterday. All my metal is in a gallon jar on the side. I have tested the solution by putting some on a white paper towel and then a drip of the test solution. There seems to be no color change. In the bucket the solution color is like aqua marine or oxidized copper color and on the paper towel its like yellow to neon green.

How would you recommend i should proceed?

First, in Chemistry spelling do matter.
There us no thing as hci, it is HCl capital letter H for Hydrogen, Cl capital C and small l from greek, green.
So try to keep this correct

Put your residual metal in HCl and dissolve all the can dissolve.
If you had proper Nitric you could have gone that route.
When no more dissolves, you will probably have a mix of Gold, Silver and some Copper.
For the next part you really need proper Nitric. The reason the alloy did not dissolve in poor-mans AR or real AR is that the Silver creates an protective layer if Silver Chloride when in contact with any Chlorine ions.

Take the residue and weigh it, then we need to get it to 6 karat. So assuming it is now 12 karat we add the same amount of Silver or Copper and smelt it to shots again.
Then you can dissolve the Cu/Ag mix in Nitric and you are left with the Gold.
It may be in a fine powder form so it might be wise to filter it.

So can you get real Nitric?
68 ish % will be best, but anything down to 15 will do the job.

Edit to add:
Do some research around not over using Nitric and denoxing before you start using it.
The same with your solution, it may hold Gold but are so heavy with oxidizer the test result disappears before you see it.

Add a Copper bar to it and let it sit there with some stirring until it stops reacting.
If there was PMs there they will cement out as slimes/powders on the bottom.

We recommend reading C.M. Hokes book to all.

 

[AndrewSuperD]

Hi, I’m fairly new here and many of the other members have a lot more experience than I do so you more experienced members here, please correct anything I’m about to “say”.

Drake, perhaps you and I are related, I too share the “jump in with both feet” gene. And Yggdrasil is spot on. The names and the chemicals that are used must be proper. It will prevent misunderstandings, or flat out confusion, when members are trying to understand your situation. It may lead to taking wrong steps and frustration.

I’ll toss out my thoughts for consideration.

I guess at this point, I would kind of start over. As I understand it, you now have a 5 gallon bucket, full of acids, dissolved metals, and other chemicals you’ve heard about, but may not quite be using properly. I think if I were you, I would first filter out the entire 5 gallon bucket of material into another 5 gallon bucket. Use extra large coffee filters, and a large strainer to make the process go faster. I would use two coffee filters at a time. If the solution is settled already, you’ll want to siphon the solution into the filter. This will prevent sediment from being stirred, and will speed filtration until you’re at the point where you have to dump all the sediment into the filter. This process will separate all but the smallest of your solids from the acids. I would then rinse those filters and solid materials with tapwater into yet another 5 gallon bucket. Rinse until the solution is absolutely clear. You can test with white paper towel. Use as little water as possible, but you need to get all acids out of the filter and off any metal materials remaining. You’d be surprised how much water this will take, and therefore how much waste it will produce. Put the coffee filters and any solids in a smaller bucket with lid. All buckets should be HDPE buckets. Lowes has many varieties. I would then evaporate that wash solution down until the color darkens to a similar color as your original 5 gallon solution. Then just add those two solutions together and continue.

I’d then go to my local hardware store and buy multiple pieces of copper fittings. Use a propane, torch and cook any oils off of those fittings. Then add those fittings to the 5 gallon of acid solution, add an aquarium bubbler style air pump, cover, and let sit. At least for several days… and at most…ehhhh when you get back to it. While this is processing, study the reactivity series of metals to understand what’s going on. Also study up on waste treatment and safety in this forum. I didn’t want to do any of it, but I had to. It’s environmentally responsible and your life expectancy will thank you. This hobby is dangerous.

Once the reactions have stopped in your bucket, filter again in the same manner as before and store together with first batch. You’ll want to rinse the remaining copper well and remove before storing. How are you going to know when the reactions have stopped? There are many articles in this form on cementing solutions. If I recall correctly, one of them is called “when in doubt, cement it out”.

At this point, you should have all of your solids, and all of your filter papers in a bucket with a lid, Put that somewhere, safe, outside. Put lids on all waste buckets and store safely outside. Then take a breather and study this forum. Like, read for a long time. Read Hoke. You’ll find a free version in this forum. I found Hoke incredibly boring unless I had already made a mistake and was trying to figure out what went wrong lol.

After that, you’ll know how to proceed. Just my two cents.

 

[eaglekeeper]

Sry once again thank you ahead of time for your patience. What does RGF mean? It was mostly old pocket watches and wrist watchs. I am assuming they were plated, but i really dont know.

GF (gold filled) RGF (rolled gold filled) and RGP (rolled gold plate) are pretty much the same thing as far as I know. They are gold plate but they are a heavier plating. There is a legal standard that must be met in order to call something Gold Filled.... Wikipedia "Gold Filled" and it will give you the details.

I think some pocket watches will be stamped 10 year, 20 year or 25 year....or something to that effect. Those are a heavier gold plate as well.

I generally don't get very much jewelry, but when I do get marked alloyed gold/Sterling/coin silver I just leave it as is.... For me it's much easier/faster to sell as is.... in my opinion.

 

[kreinhardt]

Gold filled isn't heavy plating. It is actual karat gold rolled very thin and sandwiching the "filler" material. It js a mechanical vs an electrochemical process. This is why you won't see complex shapes like you will in plated or actual gold material. Chains and watch cases are perfect examples of the common GF material you will find. Much of it will indicate the karat and how much weight is actually gold (eg 10k 1/20 GF).

Heavy gold plate does exist and some will even carry a mark for that if the country where it was produced cares. There is also vermeil which is a very heavy gold plate over sterling. Sometimes this is marked as such but most often is not.

 

[eaglekeeper]

That clears a few things up for me as well. I always wondered how they were able to plate karat gold. Now I know it's not electrochemical, but mechanically adhered.

 

[Drake]

First, in Chemistry spelling do matter.
There us no thing as hci, it is HCl capital letter H for Hydrogen, Cl capital C and small l from greek, green.
So try to keep this correct

Put your residual metal in HCl and dissolve all the can dissolve.
If you had proper Nitric you could have gone that route.
When no more dissolves, you will probably have a mix of Gold, Silver and some Copper.
For the next part you really need proper Nitric. The reason the alloy did not dissolve in poor-mans AR or real AR is that the Silver creates an protective layer if Silver Chloride when in contact with any Chlorine ions.

Take the residue and weigh it, then we need to get it to 6 karat. So assuming it is now 12 karat we add the same amount of Silver or Copper and smelt it to shots again.
Then you can dissolve the Cu/Ag mix in Nitric and you are left with the Gold.
It may be in a fine powder form so it might be wise to filter it.

So can you get real Nitric?
68 ish % will be best, but anything down to 15 will do the job.

Edit to add:
Do some research around not over using Nitric and denoxing before you start using it.
The same with your solution, it may hold Gold but are so heavy with oxidizer the test result disappears before you see it.

Add a Copper bar to it and let it sit there with some stirring until it stops reacting.
If there was PMs there they will cement out as slimes/powders on the bottom.

We recommend reading C.M. Hokes book to all.

Hi Yggdrasil,

Let me start with a big THANK YOU!
and it will be HCI for now on. I maybe neon green at the moment but I promise to pay attention and absorb all that you will share. I can aquire some Nitric Acid and will aim for some in 60% range. But on a poor mans budget is there anything you could point me to that would be in a typical hardware store that would work. I would absolutely typically go for the best option, but I am in a bit of a pinch at the moment. If not no worries, I will dig up everything I can to stay within your mentorship. I will start with the recommended literature "C.M Hokes" book today.
Also thank you for correcting me on any of this. I am happy that you have and with great detail explaining the error. That is always constructive. Well to anyone who truly wants to learn. Once again Yggdrasil Thanks a million!

Couple more questions I hope you will help with boss. I have used the thread search but haven't been able to find any details about building a
"scrubbing unit "? I seen some mention I believe on another thread ,but maybe its not even what I am picturing. Like a unit that helps clean up the exhausted air. I do apologize if its a redundant question and the answer is in the recommended reading . I dont want to even look on the so called knowledge of oogles search engine.
Also, So the Sodium Nitrate is just crap for making AR then?

 

[Drake]

Hi, I’m fairly new here and many of the other members have a lot more experience than I do so you more experienced members here, please correct anything I’m about to “say”.

Drake, perhaps you and I are related, I too share the “jump in with both feet” gene. And Yggdrasil is spot on. The names and the chemicals that are used must be proper. It will prevent misunderstandings, or flat out confusion, when members are trying to understand your situation. It may lead to taking wrong steps and frustration.

I’ll toss out my thoughts for consideration.

I guess at this point, I would kind of start over. As I understand it, you now have a 5 gallon bucket, full of acids, dissolved metals, and other chemicals you’ve heard about, but may not quite be using properly. I think if I were you, I would first filter out the entire 5 gallon bucket of material into another 5 gallon bucket. Use extra large coffee filters, and a large strainer to make the process go faster. I would use two coffee filters at a time. If the solution is settled already, you’ll want to siphon the solution into the filter. This will prevent sediment from being stirred, and will speed filtration until you’re at the point where you have to dump all the sediment into the filter. This process will separate all but the smallest of your solids from the acids. I would then rinse those filters and solid materials with tapwater into yet another 5 gallon bucket. Rinse until the solution is absolutely clear. You can test with white paper towel. Use as little water as possible, but you need to get all acids out of the filter and off any metal materials remaining. You’d be surprised how much water this will take, and therefore how much waste it will produce. Put the coffee filters and any solids in a smaller bucket with lid. All buckets should be HDPE buckets. Lowes has many varieties. I would then evaporate that wash solution down until the color darkens to a similar color as your original 5 gallon solution. Then just add those two solutions together and continue.

I’d then go to my local hardware store and buy multiple pieces of copper fittings. Use a propane, torch and cook any oils off of those fittings. Then add those fittings to the 5 gallon of acid solution, add an aquarium bubbler style air pump, cover, and let sit. At least for several days… and at most…ehhhh when you get back to it. While this is processing, study the reactivity series of metals to understand what’s going on. Also study up on waste treatment and safety in this forum. I didn’t want to do any of it, but I had to. It’s environmentally responsible and your life expectancy will thank you. This hobby is dangerous.

Once the reactions have stopped in your bucket, filter again in the same manner as before and store together with first batch. You’ll want to rinse the remaining copper well and remove before storing. How are you going to know when the reactions have stopped? There are many articles in this form on cementing solutions. If I recall correctly, one of them is called “when in doubt, cement it out”.

At this point, you should have all of your solids, and all of your filter papers in a bucket with a lid, Put that somewhere, safe, outside. Put lids on all waste buckets and store safely outside. Then take a breather and study this forum. Like, read for a long time. Read Hoke. You’ll find a free version in this forum. I found Hoke incredibly boring unless I had already made a mistake and was trying to figure out what went wrong lol.

After that, you’ll know how to proceed. Just my two cents.

Hi AndrewSuperD

Thank you for Jumping in. Pls always keep the recommendations coming. I really appreciate how interactive, patient and helpfully constructive everyone has been so far. You wouldn't believe how much that means to me right now and your 2 cents you tossed at me is more then I have at the moment. Trust me safety for me, those around me and my environment are always first. I have a beautiful habitat with salmon in my back yard and my family in the front I wouldn't be able to forgive myself cause of something that i did out of laziness or gross negligence.
On the topic of hobby. Well my lust for gold, gems and treasures started 30 years ago. It has always been a hobby that led me to become a certified diver, licensed UA Pilot and a avid hiker, but now its much more then a hobby. Now its kinda one of those defining moments in life where either I sink or swim. I have had a bit of a streak of luck for once in my life. Cause I believe I have stumbled apon a small geological anomalie w/some Kimberlite deposits which is completely unbelievable, but once again I dont have all the pieces of the pie. I need to make it over to the city to have a Gemologist look over some of the samples, but I suppose thats a different forum. Lol.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hi Yggdrasil,

Let me start with a big THANK YOU!
and it will be HCI for now on. I maybe neon green at the moment but I promise to pay attention and absorb all that you will share. I can aquire some Nitric Acid and will aim for some in 60% range.
But on a poor mans budget is there anything you could point me to that would be in a typical hardware store that would work.

Depends on what you are going to use it for. For dissolving Silver free alloys you can always use HCl/Bleach or HCl/Peroxide.
But if it have Silver in it you need to have clean Nitric and no Chlorine ions in the water.

I would absolutely typically go for the best option, but I am in a bit of a pinch at the moment. If not no worries, I will dig up everything I can to stay within your mentorship. I will start with the recommended literature "C.M Hokes" book today.
Also thank you for correcting me on any of this. I am happy that you have and with great detail explaining the error. That is always constructive. Well to anyone who truly wants to learn. Once again Yggdrasil Thanks a million!

Couple more questions I hope you will help with boss. I have used the thread search but haven't been able to find any details about building a
"scrubbing unit "? I seen some mention I believe on another thread ,but maybe its not even what I am picturing. Like a unit that helps clean up the exhausted air. I do apologize if its a redundant question and the answer is in the recommended reading .

Search for fume hoods and scrubbers in the section for building your own equipment.

I dont want to even look on the so called knowledge of oogles search engine.
Also, So the Sodium Nitrate is just crap for making AR then?

Nitrates and HCl is called porr mans AR and has a multitude of good uses, but not with Silver in the mix, karat Gold almost always have Silver in it.

You can make proper Nitric with Nitrates, but it is a dangerous process.

Keep on studying, as you get more involved in Hokes book you will realise how things interact and can start formulating more specific questions to the issue at hand.

I still discover new things in her book when I reread it